Maple Syrup
APM Studios
May 14, 2025
Where does maple syrup come from?
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RSSToday’s episode is all about the best breakfast topping, the sap that slaps…maple syrup! If you’ve ever had maple syrup on your pancakes or waffles, you have the Native people of what’s now called North America to thank for that. Native people have been making maple syrup for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
Tag along with Joy and cohost Marvin as they explain how syrup is made. Minnesota Public Radio reporter Chandra Colvin also drops by to share how Native communities continue this centuries-old syrup tradition. Plus, you won't want to miss a new First Things First, so stick around!
Featured Experts:
Chandra Colvin is a reporter for Native News at Minnesota Public Radio. She’s also a member of the Bois Forte Band of Chippewa. You can find more of her work here.
Forest Hunt is a plant scientist with the East Phillips Neighborhood Institute. They are a direct descendant of the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians in North Dakota.
Shirley Boyd and Bette Sam are elders in the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe.
Audio Transcript
Download transcript (PDF)
[STATIONERY RUSTLES] JOY DOLO: Marvin, I'm so glad we're finally putting our vision boards together. I just love cutting out all my hopes and dreams and putting them on paper. There's so many good pictures and quotes to choose from. I feel so inspired.
MARVIN: It's like you always say, Joy. You can't be bored when you're making a vision board.
JOY DOLO: I do always say that. Plus, this is perfect because I put vision boarding on my last vision board. And look, my dreams are coming true.
MARVIN: Hey, could you pass me the glue stick? I just found the perfect picture to put on my board.
JOY DOLO: Ooh, exciting stuff. Here you go, Marvin.
MARVIN: Thanks. And done. Want to see?
JOY DOLO: Do some frogs have opposable thumbs? Yeah, I want to see your board.
MARVIN: Wait, do some frogs have opposable thumbs like us humans?
JOY DOLO: Yes, the waxy monkey tree frog in South America has opposable thumbs.
[PAGE FLIPS]
I just learned about it in Thumb Wrestlers monthly magazine. This frog picture has to go on my vision board stat. I've always wanted to thumb wrestle an amphibian.
[SCRIBBLES]
OK, Marvin, let's see your vision board.
MARVIN: Well, there's no thumb-wrestling frogs on mine, but ta-da.
JOY DOLO: [GASPS] It's beautiful. Is that a picture of Tokyo?
MARVIN: Yeah, I'm learning Japanese. And it would be really cool to visit someday.
JOY DOLO: Totally.
MARVIN: I also have some trees because I love being outside and somebody dropping in on a skateboard because I really want to learn. And, of course, this picture of maple syrup because maple syrup is the best.
JOY DOLO: Get out. I also have a picture of maple syrup on my vision board. See? Right next to this photo of actor Jason Momoa and the picture of a koala, both of whom also have opposable thumbs.
MARVIN: Whoa, I think this is a sign, Joy.
JOY DOLO: That we should have an ultimate thumb wrestling tournament with Jason Momoa, a koala, and a waxy monkey tree frog?
MARVIN: I was thinking we should do an episode about maple syrup.
JOY DOLO: Even better.
[THEME MUSIC]
Welcome to Forever Ago from APM Studios. I'm Joy Dolo, and I'm here today with Marvin from Grand Rapids, Minnesota.
MARVIN: Hi, Joy.
JOY DOLO: Forever Ago is a non-profit public radio program, which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are tons of ways you can support the show.
MARVIN: You can donate, become a Smarty Pass subscriber, or buy our merch.
JOY DOLO: Head to foreverago.org to show your support.
MARVIN: Thanks.
JOY DOLO: Today we're talking all about the best breakfast topping pancakes' favorite friend, the sap that slaps--
MARVIN: Maple syrup.
JOY DOLO: We were inspired by vision boards and this question from Mona.
MONA: My question is, what is the origin of maple syrup?
JOY DOLO: Such a great question. Marvin, do you like maple syrup?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: [CHUCKLES] What foods do you like to put maple syrup on?
MARVIN: Probably pancakes.
JOY DOLO: What else could you put maple syrup on?
MARVIN: Probably whipped cream.
JOY DOLO: Oh, that's a good idea. Whipped cream, maple syrup and just eat it with a spoon. Which do you like better, pancakes or waffles?
MARVIN: Definitely pancakes.
JOY DOLO: OK, do you like waffles?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: OK. Is there just something about the squares that you don't like?
MARVIN: No, just pancakes are better.
JOY DOLO: So I like-- I love pancakes and waffles. But I like waffles more because I like the waffles that they have at the hotels that you put inside of that iron thing and then you smoosh it and it goes [HISSES]
And then also, the outside is super crunchy. And it also gives you all the different kinds of toppings. Like, you could have whipped cream and maple syrup, or you can have sprinkles, or you can have chocolate chips or fruit and stuff on it. What is your favorite topping on your pancakes?
MARVIN: Definitely either strawberries or blueberries.
JOY DOLO: Mm. Yeah, those are good fruits. So before we get into the history of this delicious treat, first, let's talk about how maple syrup is made.
[GUITAR STRING]
MARVIN: It all starts with sap, a liquid that's inside all trees.
JOY DOLO: If you've ever climbed a tree or looked at tree bark up close, you might have seen sap coming out of the tree. It's usually clear, watery, and super sticky.
MARVIN: You can think of sap like the blood of the tree.
JOY DOLO: Just like blood helps move nutrients throughout our bodies, sap helps spread nutrients throughout trees, all the way from their deep roots to the tips of their branches.
MARVIN: Sap also has a little bit of sugar in it.
JOY DOLO: All trees make sap, but not all sap can be made into sweet syrup for us to eat. Some trees make more sugary sap than others, like birch, boxelder trees, and, of course, maples.
MARVIN: Maple trees usually make the sweetest sap. That's why they're the most popular for making syrup.
JOY DOLO: The best time to collect sap is in the late winter or early spring when the temperature is above freezing during the day but still freezing during the nighttime.
MARVIN: When temperatures bounce back and forth, it builds up pressure inside the tree and helps the sap flow better.
JOY DOLO: To transform your collected tree sap into syrup, you have to boil it on a stove, sort of, like if you were cooking a stew.
[POT SIMMERING]
MARVIN: Most of the water boils off and evaporates from the sap, leaving a thick, sugary liquid-- syrup.
JOY DOLO: Making maple syrup can be a complicated and sometimes long process. And you might be wondering, who figured out how to do this anyway?
MARVIN: If you've ever had maple syrup on your pancakes or waffles, you have the Native people of what's now called North America to thank.
[LIGHTHEARTED MUSIC]
JOY DOLO: When we say Native people, it might sound like we're talking about one group. But we're actually referring to a very large and diverse group of people who lived here long before European colonists arrived.
MARVIN: You might have also heard the terms Native Americans or Indigenous people.
JOY DOLO: Native people are part of many different tribes and tribal nations. And these groups have unique languages, cultural traditions, histories, and spiritual beliefs.
MARVIN: Like my family, my mom is from the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe and my dad is from the Lower Sioux Dakota Oyate. And there are hundreds of other tribes across the United States.
JOY DOLO: Like we mentioned, maple syrup was first made by Native people. They've been making it for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years.
MARVIN: To help tell us more, we have a special syrup guest, Chandra Colvin.
JOY DOLO: Chandra is a reporter with Native News at Minnesota Public Radio. And she's also a member of the Bois Forte Band of Chippewa. Hi, Chandra.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Hi, Marvin. Hi, Joy. I'm so excited to be here. Did you know I put being a podcast guest on my vision board for this year?
[PAGE FLIPS]
Right next to starting my own book club and trying 30 new desserts.
JOY DOLO: Wow. Vision boarding is so powerful.
MARVIN: So, Chandra, you've been doing a lot of reporting on maple syrup. Can you tell us more about where it first came from?
CHANDRA COLVIN: Well, Native people have been making maple syrup for a long time. Maple syrup was an important source of food for Native people because it provides nutrients. It was also used for preserving meats and sweetening bitter medicines.
And making maple syrup is a long-time tradition that Native people still do today. We call it maple tapping or sugarbushing.
MARVIN: Oh, yeah, sugarbushing. A forest of maple trees is sometimes called a sugarbush because of their sweet sap.
JOY DOLO: Mm, a sugar forest. That's my favorite kind of forest.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Mine too. Native people tell all different kinds of stories about the origins of maple syrup too. To learn more, I talked with my other favorite forest, Forest Hunt. They're a descendant of the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians in North Dakota, and they shared an Ojibwe origin story of sugarbushing they learned as a kid. The story begins with a tricky spirit named Nanabozho.
FOREST HUNT: Nanabozho was walking in the forest one day when he came across a band of people that were just laying on their backs on the ground underneath these maple trees. And they had their mouths open, and they were just having the sap drip right into their mouths.
[DROPLETS TRICKLE]
Mm.
And they weren't doing anything else. They were just sitting there with the maple syrup, this pure maple syrup, sugary like what we have on pancakes just dripping directly into their mouths. And Nanabozho saw this and he got a little bit upset. He was like, this is not how we are supposed to live. We are supposed to work for our food and care for the land.
So Nanabozho got very frustrated with these people and tried to motivate them to be like, you need to work, you need to hunt, you need to take care of the land. That's part of what you're supposed to do is take care of the land. So he grabbed these big buckets, and I'm sure back then it was probably birchbark buckets, filled them with water from a nearby and dumped them directly onto the trees.
[WATER SPLASHES]
And when he did that, the thick syrup that was dripping from the maple trees, it turned watery. And it wasn't delicious anymore. It wasn't providing the sustenance that these people needed.
And he said, so now you have to work for your food. You have to actually tap the trees and boil down the sap. And it's going to take a really long time. It's a complicated process. And so now you will work for your food rather than just lay there and be lazy.
But that's what we have today. We have the watered down sap instead of the pure maple syrup.
CHANDRA COLVIN: So, like Forest mentioned, the spirit Nanabozho wanted the people to work for their food and provide for themselves. That's why he turned the pure maple syrup into sap. And this is just a story. But it's true that a lot of work goes into making maple syrup. It can be tiring, but it's also very rewarding.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, we talked a little about this earlier, how you have to collect the tree sap and then that gets turned into maple syrup. But how do you get the sap out anyway?
CHANDRA COLVIN: Well, you take a special tool called a spile. It's a metal peg with a hole almost like a straw. You gently tap it into the tree.
[METAL STRIKES]
And sap should start flowing out. You'll want to use a special bag to catch all of it. Then you wait. Usually, it takes a couple of days. And once you've collected the sap, you boil it either over a stove or a fire.
JOY DOLO: So cool. Marvin, I've heard you've done sugarbushing too.
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: So who taught you?
MARVIN: My mom and dad, actually. We just have three trees out in our yard. We tap those.
JOY DOLO: Oh, that's cool. Do you have a favorite part of sugarbushing?
MARVIN: Mm, probably waiting for the sap to boil.
JOY DOLO: [CHUCKLES] Do you guys just chat?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Is there anything challenging about doing it?
MARVIN: Probably bringing the heavy buckets up from the river.
JOY DOLO: Oh, yeah, that sounds harsh. How can you tell when the sap has boiled enough?
MARVIN: Well, it gets really thick. Like, that's syrup consistency. And it gets golden brown.
JOY DOLO: OK. So do you ever get syrup from the grocery store?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Do you have a preference of grocery store or your trees?
MARVIN: Probably the trees.
JOY DOLO: Does it taste different?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: What's the biggest difference in the taste?
MARVIN: Definitely more watery.
JOY DOLO: It's more watery?
MARVIN: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, yeah. So it's like thinner.
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Cool. Will you take me some time?
MARVIN: Sure.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHANDRA COLVIN: So, like Marvin and his family, lots of people do this with their families. I talked with Shirley Boyd and Bette Sam all about this. They're elders in the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe. And they told me the word for maple syrup in Ojibwe is zhiiwaagamizigan. They did sugarbushing with their families as kids, and they'd make taffy or sugar cakes with the maple syrup.
SHIRLEY BOYD: Well, they used to give us a piece of it if you're standing around there watching. But that's what us little kids used to wait for.
BETTE SAM: And you wait for it to cool off then you eat it. You lick it.
JOY DOLO: Yum. That sounds so good.
CHANDRA COLVIN: I know. You can make sugar cones and sugar candies from maple syrup if you boil it down a lot. Marvin, have you ever tried maple sugar candies or other kinds of maple treats?
MARVIN: I've actually made a lot of maple sugar candies before, and they're very delicious.
CHANDRA COLVIN: And how do you make maple sugar candies?
MARVIN: So you boil the sap down into syrup, right? And then you take the syrup and then you boil it down even more until it turns into a sugar. And then you can mold it because it's still a little sticky. And you can mold it into maybe like little stars or circles.
JOY DOLO: I like candy, so I'm won over already.
CHANDRA COLVIN: There's so many delicious things you can make with maple syrup. You know, I was actually able to go out and sugarbush this year.
[PHONE BEEPS]
Hold up. My 11th new dessert is ready to be picked up. It's a banana split ice cream cake. I got to pick it up before it melts.
MARVIN: Dessert duty calls.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Be right back.
[RUNNING FOOTSTEPS]
JOY DOLO: While we wait for Chandra to get back, let's play--
[MUSIC PLAYING]
First Things First.
[JINGLE]
That's the game where we take three items and put them in order from oldest to most recent in history. Today we have three sticky things-- superglue, molasses, and post-its. Marvin, do you know all these items?
MARVIN: Uh, not molasses.
JOY DOLO: So molasses is a super thick dark syrup that's used in baked goods like gingerbread. It's super dark brown, almost black in color. So which do you think came first, which came second, and which came most recently in history?
MARVIN: I think molasses came first.
JOY DOLO: Nice. Nice guess. Why is that?
MARVIN: Because it seems like you would be able to make it more easier than with superglue and post-its that probably use more of chemical manipulation too.
JOY DOLO: Yeah.
MARVIN: So molasses would be, one, a lot easier for people a long time to make it.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, I bet they're making molasses a long time. So we have molasses first. Do you think superglue or post-its came next?
MARVIN: Hmm. Probably superglue.
JOY DOLO: OK. All right. And then post-its last. And the reasoning behind that order?
MARVIN: Because superglue is like an adhesive. And also, post-its use both paper and adhesive.
JOY DOLO: Mmm. Yes, those are some great answers and stuff to back it up. Is that your final answer?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: All right. So we have molasses, and then superglue, and then post-its.
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Yes. All right. Great guesses. We'll hear the answers at the end of the show after the credits.
MARVIN: So make like syrup and stick around.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: We're working on an episode all about the Girl Scouts. Girl Scouts earn badges for gaining special skills, from first aid to good sportsmanship to cooking a delectable dinner. And we want to know if you could give a badge to an important person in your life, what badge would you give them and why?
For me, I would give my husband a I-make-yummy-food badge because he makes yummy food with cheese on it. What about you, Marvin? Is there someone in your life who deserves a badge for something?
MARVIN: Probably mom because I would give it to her for being the best mom.
JOY DOLO: The best mom badge, all right. That's great. Listeners, we want to hear from you, too. Record yourself describing who you would give a badge to and what it would be for, and send it to us at foreverago.org/contact.
MARVIN: You can also send us questions and fan art.
JOY DOLO: Yes, like your own vision board for Forever Ago or a picture of me thumb wrestling a tree frog with one hand and a koala with the other. I can't wait to see it.
NARRATOR: Brains On! Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Forever Ago, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
[AIRCRAFT ROARING]
ALIEN: It's Alien Exercise Hour. Hi-yah! Hoo-ha! While I stretch my snoodles and bounce on my trampoline, I'll listen to a new podcast. [LAUGHS]
[BUZZER BEEPS]
I'm going to try Smash Boom Best, the best debate podcast ever.
[SCI-FI BEEP]
NARRATOR: Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command.
[HIP-HOP MUSIC]
Drop the beat
Ladies and gentlemen, it's team judge of Smash Boom Best
I'd like to start with a few rhymes
Uh, yo
Catch me in the rabbit hole
Dazzled by a magic show
By the--
ALIEN: Zap. Come back here, podcast.
[ELECTRONIC BEEP]
Must listen to Smash Boom Best now!
[WHOOSH]
NARRATOR: Listen to Smash Boom Best wherever you get your podcasts.
[THEME MUSIC]
JOY DOLO: You're listening to Forever Ago. I'm Joy.
MARVIN: I'm Marvin.
CHANDRA COLVIN: And I'm Chandra. I'm back and full of banana split ice cream cake. I would give it a solid 7 out of 10. But today we're talking about a different sweet treat, maple syrup.
JOY DOLO: Before the break, we learned that Native people in North America have been tapping maple trees and making syrup for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. They call this process sugarbushing.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Sugarbushing is really important to some Native people because it's a source of food sovereignty.
MARVIN: Wait, what's sovereignty?
CHANDRA COLVIN: Good question. Basically, sovereignty means the right that Native nations have to make decisions for themselves without outside interference. And food sovereignty is Native people's ability to keep making and enjoying traditional foods, the foods that were here long before European settlers came to the Americas.
MARVIN: So those traditions don't get lost?
CHANDRA COLVIN: Exactly.
JOY DOLO: Speaking of which, Chandra, you went sugarbushing not too long, right?
CHANDRA COLVIN: Yeah, I stopped by Porky's Sugarbush Camp. It's not too far outside of Minneapolis, Minnesota. They've been making maple syrup for 50 years now, and every year they invite the community out to help make maple syrup and sugar.
MARVIN: That's cool. Did you get to collect sap from the trees.
CHANDRA COLVIN: By the time I got there, they'd already collected all the sap and boiled it in these big, black kettles. To make just one gallon of syrup, you need to boil down 40 gallons of sap. That's about enough to fill a bathtub. So you can imagine how long that would take to boil.
JOY DOLO: Oh, wow. I had no idea it took that much sap to make a gallon of syrup. That's amazing.
CHANDRA COLVIN: I know. I got to help out with canning the maple syrup, and I had to wear these thick gloves because it was really hot from boiling for so long.
MARVIN: So what was your favorite part?
CHANDRA COLVIN: I think being able to just smell the sweet scent of the sap. They also let me taste the syrup. To me, it was more watery than the kind you get at the store. And it had a smoky taste from the wood fire.
MARVIN: Did you learn anything new about sugarbushing?
CHANDRA COLVIN: I learned how much patience it takes to make maple syrup. You have to be patient in collecting the sap and patient when boiling it. But it's worth the wait once you finally get to taste it.
JOY DOLO: There's nothing better than maple syrup on your waffles or pancakes.
MARVIN: Totally. Thanks so much for sharing all your reporting with us, Chandra.
JOY DOLO: Rock star reporting. I hope I get to go sugarbushing too someday. It sounds amazing.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Thanks for having me and making my vision board dreams come true. Now I just have to tackle my 12th dessert, brown sugar soufflé pancakes. Want to get some with me?
MARVIN: Do some tree frogs have opposable thumbs?
JOY DOLO & MARVIN: Yeah, we want to eat pancakes.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Wait, tree frogs have opposable thumbs?
JOY DOLO: Just like koalas and Jason Momoa. Don't worry, we'll fill you in over pancakes.
[THEME MUSIC]
Native people in what's now called North America have been making maple syrup for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
MARVIN: There are many Native stories about the origins of maple syrup, and it's a very important tradition for some tribes.
JOY DOLO: It starts every spring by collecting tree sap and boiling it down into syrup.
MARVIN: It takes a lot of time and dedication and patience to make the maple syrup, but it's worth it.
JOY DOLO: This episode was written by Chandra Colvin and--
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
JOY DOLO: It was produced and fact checked by--
NICO GONZALEZ WISLER: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
JOY DOLO: And edited by--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan.
JOY DOLO: Engineering help from Josh Savageau with sound design by--
RACHEL BREES: Rachel Brees.
JOY DOLO: Original theme music by--
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
JOY DOLO: We had additional production help from the rest of the Brains On! Universe team.
MOLLY BLOOM: Molly Bloom.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie DuPont.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
LAUREN HUMBERT: Lauren Humbert.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
REBECCA RAND: Rebecca Rand.
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: Charlotte Traver.
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
JOY DOLO: And--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: Aron Woldeslassie.
JOY DOLO: Beth Pearlman is our executive producer. And the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to Forest Hunt, Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe elders Shirley Boyd and Bette Sam, Travis Zimmerman, Jim Seamus, Deb White, Porky's Sugarbush Camp, and Leah Lemm.
MARVIN: And if you want access to ad-free episodes and special bonus stuff, subscribe to our Smarty Pass.
JOY DOLO: OK, Marvin. Are you ready to hear the answers for First Things First?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Yes. OK, so as a reminder, you said that molasses was first and then superglue and then post-its. Here we go.
[VOCALIZING]
Tongue drum roll.
[VOCALIZING]
Nobody can see my face, but you got it right.
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Yes, yes. Really great guessing. So first up, you're right, molasses. And that was traced back to 500 BC. That goes back to India.
So that means it's more than 2000 years old, which is the oldest, right? So molasses is made by pressing sugar cane into juice then boiling the sugary juice down until it thickens. In 1919, there was a great molasses flood in Boston, Massachusetts. A giant barrel of molasses exploded and over 2 million gallons of molasses flooded the streets. That sounds like quite the sticky situation.
MARVIN: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: And then you were right again. Next up, it was superglue. Glue And that was made in 1942. So superglue was invented by accident.
During World War II, A scientist named Doctor Harry Coover was working with chemicals, trying to develop a clear plastic for the military. However, the chemicals were always too sticky, which made them impossible to work with.
He later figured out he could use those chemicals to make a sticky glue that we call superglue today. I can't tell you how many times I've opened a superglue and had my fingers stick together. Have you had that happen before too?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: And it's just-- thanks so much, Doctor Harry Coover. You made my fingers stick together. And last but certainly not least, is post-its. And that was invented in 1977.
So post-its were released in 1977. And they originally were called Press 'n Peels. I like that name more than post-its, Press 'n Peels.
It all started when a scientist named Spencer Silver invented an adhesive that could both hold paper together but also allow the papers to be taken apart without tearing them. Years later, one of Silver's co-workers was at church singing and wished he could bookmark his hymns without damaging the pages. He realized Silver's adhesive would be perfect to make reusable sticky bookmarks, and the post-it was born.
I have also used a post-it as a bookmark as well. So thank you, Spencer Silver. What do you find interesting about these facts here?
MARVIN: Probably how the superglue was made during World War II because I was not expecting that.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, yeah, me neither. I think you did really great guessing with the adhesive and the adhesive paper combo. That was really smart, and that seems like that was the order it was created. Good job, Marvin.
We'll be back next week with a new episode about the Girl Scouts.
MARVIN: Thanks for listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MARVIN: It's like you always say, Joy. You can't be bored when you're making a vision board.
JOY DOLO: I do always say that. Plus, this is perfect because I put vision boarding on my last vision board. And look, my dreams are coming true.
MARVIN: Hey, could you pass me the glue stick? I just found the perfect picture to put on my board.
JOY DOLO: Ooh, exciting stuff. Here you go, Marvin.
MARVIN: Thanks. And done. Want to see?
JOY DOLO: Do some frogs have opposable thumbs? Yeah, I want to see your board.
MARVIN: Wait, do some frogs have opposable thumbs like us humans?
JOY DOLO: Yes, the waxy monkey tree frog in South America has opposable thumbs.
[PAGE FLIPS]
I just learned about it in Thumb Wrestlers monthly magazine. This frog picture has to go on my vision board stat. I've always wanted to thumb wrestle an amphibian.
[SCRIBBLES]
OK, Marvin, let's see your vision board.
MARVIN: Well, there's no thumb-wrestling frogs on mine, but ta-da.
JOY DOLO: [GASPS] It's beautiful. Is that a picture of Tokyo?
MARVIN: Yeah, I'm learning Japanese. And it would be really cool to visit someday.
JOY DOLO: Totally.
MARVIN: I also have some trees because I love being outside and somebody dropping in on a skateboard because I really want to learn. And, of course, this picture of maple syrup because maple syrup is the best.
JOY DOLO: Get out. I also have a picture of maple syrup on my vision board. See? Right next to this photo of actor Jason Momoa and the picture of a koala, both of whom also have opposable thumbs.
MARVIN: Whoa, I think this is a sign, Joy.
JOY DOLO: That we should have an ultimate thumb wrestling tournament with Jason Momoa, a koala, and a waxy monkey tree frog?
MARVIN: I was thinking we should do an episode about maple syrup.
JOY DOLO: Even better.
[THEME MUSIC]
Welcome to Forever Ago from APM Studios. I'm Joy Dolo, and I'm here today with Marvin from Grand Rapids, Minnesota.
MARVIN: Hi, Joy.
JOY DOLO: Forever Ago is a non-profit public radio program, which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are tons of ways you can support the show.
MARVIN: You can donate, become a Smarty Pass subscriber, or buy our merch.
JOY DOLO: Head to foreverago.org to show your support.
MARVIN: Thanks.
JOY DOLO: Today we're talking all about the best breakfast topping pancakes' favorite friend, the sap that slaps--
MARVIN: Maple syrup.
JOY DOLO: We were inspired by vision boards and this question from Mona.
MONA: My question is, what is the origin of maple syrup?
JOY DOLO: Such a great question. Marvin, do you like maple syrup?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: [CHUCKLES] What foods do you like to put maple syrup on?
MARVIN: Probably pancakes.
JOY DOLO: What else could you put maple syrup on?
MARVIN: Probably whipped cream.
JOY DOLO: Oh, that's a good idea. Whipped cream, maple syrup and just eat it with a spoon. Which do you like better, pancakes or waffles?
MARVIN: Definitely pancakes.
JOY DOLO: OK, do you like waffles?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: OK. Is there just something about the squares that you don't like?
MARVIN: No, just pancakes are better.
JOY DOLO: So I like-- I love pancakes and waffles. But I like waffles more because I like the waffles that they have at the hotels that you put inside of that iron thing and then you smoosh it and it goes [HISSES]
And then also, the outside is super crunchy. And it also gives you all the different kinds of toppings. Like, you could have whipped cream and maple syrup, or you can have sprinkles, or you can have chocolate chips or fruit and stuff on it. What is your favorite topping on your pancakes?
MARVIN: Definitely either strawberries or blueberries.
JOY DOLO: Mm. Yeah, those are good fruits. So before we get into the history of this delicious treat, first, let's talk about how maple syrup is made.
[GUITAR STRING]
MARVIN: It all starts with sap, a liquid that's inside all trees.
JOY DOLO: If you've ever climbed a tree or looked at tree bark up close, you might have seen sap coming out of the tree. It's usually clear, watery, and super sticky.
MARVIN: You can think of sap like the blood of the tree.
JOY DOLO: Just like blood helps move nutrients throughout our bodies, sap helps spread nutrients throughout trees, all the way from their deep roots to the tips of their branches.
MARVIN: Sap also has a little bit of sugar in it.
JOY DOLO: All trees make sap, but not all sap can be made into sweet syrup for us to eat. Some trees make more sugary sap than others, like birch, boxelder trees, and, of course, maples.
MARVIN: Maple trees usually make the sweetest sap. That's why they're the most popular for making syrup.
JOY DOLO: The best time to collect sap is in the late winter or early spring when the temperature is above freezing during the day but still freezing during the nighttime.
MARVIN: When temperatures bounce back and forth, it builds up pressure inside the tree and helps the sap flow better.
JOY DOLO: To transform your collected tree sap into syrup, you have to boil it on a stove, sort of, like if you were cooking a stew.
[POT SIMMERING]
MARVIN: Most of the water boils off and evaporates from the sap, leaving a thick, sugary liquid-- syrup.
JOY DOLO: Making maple syrup can be a complicated and sometimes long process. And you might be wondering, who figured out how to do this anyway?
MARVIN: If you've ever had maple syrup on your pancakes or waffles, you have the Native people of what's now called North America to thank.
[LIGHTHEARTED MUSIC]
JOY DOLO: When we say Native people, it might sound like we're talking about one group. But we're actually referring to a very large and diverse group of people who lived here long before European colonists arrived.
MARVIN: You might have also heard the terms Native Americans or Indigenous people.
JOY DOLO: Native people are part of many different tribes and tribal nations. And these groups have unique languages, cultural traditions, histories, and spiritual beliefs.
MARVIN: Like my family, my mom is from the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe and my dad is from the Lower Sioux Dakota Oyate. And there are hundreds of other tribes across the United States.
JOY DOLO: Like we mentioned, maple syrup was first made by Native people. They've been making it for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years.
MARVIN: To help tell us more, we have a special syrup guest, Chandra Colvin.
JOY DOLO: Chandra is a reporter with Native News at Minnesota Public Radio. And she's also a member of the Bois Forte Band of Chippewa. Hi, Chandra.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Hi, Marvin. Hi, Joy. I'm so excited to be here. Did you know I put being a podcast guest on my vision board for this year?
[PAGE FLIPS]
Right next to starting my own book club and trying 30 new desserts.
JOY DOLO: Wow. Vision boarding is so powerful.
MARVIN: So, Chandra, you've been doing a lot of reporting on maple syrup. Can you tell us more about where it first came from?
CHANDRA COLVIN: Well, Native people have been making maple syrup for a long time. Maple syrup was an important source of food for Native people because it provides nutrients. It was also used for preserving meats and sweetening bitter medicines.
And making maple syrup is a long-time tradition that Native people still do today. We call it maple tapping or sugarbushing.
MARVIN: Oh, yeah, sugarbushing. A forest of maple trees is sometimes called a sugarbush because of their sweet sap.
JOY DOLO: Mm, a sugar forest. That's my favorite kind of forest.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Mine too. Native people tell all different kinds of stories about the origins of maple syrup too. To learn more, I talked with my other favorite forest, Forest Hunt. They're a descendant of the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians in North Dakota, and they shared an Ojibwe origin story of sugarbushing they learned as a kid. The story begins with a tricky spirit named Nanabozho.
FOREST HUNT: Nanabozho was walking in the forest one day when he came across a band of people that were just laying on their backs on the ground underneath these maple trees. And they had their mouths open, and they were just having the sap drip right into their mouths.
[DROPLETS TRICKLE]
Mm.
And they weren't doing anything else. They were just sitting there with the maple syrup, this pure maple syrup, sugary like what we have on pancakes just dripping directly into their mouths. And Nanabozho saw this and he got a little bit upset. He was like, this is not how we are supposed to live. We are supposed to work for our food and care for the land.
So Nanabozho got very frustrated with these people and tried to motivate them to be like, you need to work, you need to hunt, you need to take care of the land. That's part of what you're supposed to do is take care of the land. So he grabbed these big buckets, and I'm sure back then it was probably birchbark buckets, filled them with water from a nearby and dumped them directly onto the trees.
[WATER SPLASHES]
And when he did that, the thick syrup that was dripping from the maple trees, it turned watery. And it wasn't delicious anymore. It wasn't providing the sustenance that these people needed.
And he said, so now you have to work for your food. You have to actually tap the trees and boil down the sap. And it's going to take a really long time. It's a complicated process. And so now you will work for your food rather than just lay there and be lazy.
But that's what we have today. We have the watered down sap instead of the pure maple syrup.
CHANDRA COLVIN: So, like Forest mentioned, the spirit Nanabozho wanted the people to work for their food and provide for themselves. That's why he turned the pure maple syrup into sap. And this is just a story. But it's true that a lot of work goes into making maple syrup. It can be tiring, but it's also very rewarding.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, we talked a little about this earlier, how you have to collect the tree sap and then that gets turned into maple syrup. But how do you get the sap out anyway?
CHANDRA COLVIN: Well, you take a special tool called a spile. It's a metal peg with a hole almost like a straw. You gently tap it into the tree.
[METAL STRIKES]
And sap should start flowing out. You'll want to use a special bag to catch all of it. Then you wait. Usually, it takes a couple of days. And once you've collected the sap, you boil it either over a stove or a fire.
JOY DOLO: So cool. Marvin, I've heard you've done sugarbushing too.
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: So who taught you?
MARVIN: My mom and dad, actually. We just have three trees out in our yard. We tap those.
JOY DOLO: Oh, that's cool. Do you have a favorite part of sugarbushing?
MARVIN: Mm, probably waiting for the sap to boil.
JOY DOLO: [CHUCKLES] Do you guys just chat?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Is there anything challenging about doing it?
MARVIN: Probably bringing the heavy buckets up from the river.
JOY DOLO: Oh, yeah, that sounds harsh. How can you tell when the sap has boiled enough?
MARVIN: Well, it gets really thick. Like, that's syrup consistency. And it gets golden brown.
JOY DOLO: OK. So do you ever get syrup from the grocery store?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Do you have a preference of grocery store or your trees?
MARVIN: Probably the trees.
JOY DOLO: Does it taste different?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: What's the biggest difference in the taste?
MARVIN: Definitely more watery.
JOY DOLO: It's more watery?
MARVIN: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, yeah. So it's like thinner.
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Cool. Will you take me some time?
MARVIN: Sure.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CHANDRA COLVIN: So, like Marvin and his family, lots of people do this with their families. I talked with Shirley Boyd and Bette Sam all about this. They're elders in the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe. And they told me the word for maple syrup in Ojibwe is zhiiwaagamizigan. They did sugarbushing with their families as kids, and they'd make taffy or sugar cakes with the maple syrup.
SHIRLEY BOYD: Well, they used to give us a piece of it if you're standing around there watching. But that's what us little kids used to wait for.
BETTE SAM: And you wait for it to cool off then you eat it. You lick it.
JOY DOLO: Yum. That sounds so good.
CHANDRA COLVIN: I know. You can make sugar cones and sugar candies from maple syrup if you boil it down a lot. Marvin, have you ever tried maple sugar candies or other kinds of maple treats?
MARVIN: I've actually made a lot of maple sugar candies before, and they're very delicious.
CHANDRA COLVIN: And how do you make maple sugar candies?
MARVIN: So you boil the sap down into syrup, right? And then you take the syrup and then you boil it down even more until it turns into a sugar. And then you can mold it because it's still a little sticky. And you can mold it into maybe like little stars or circles.
JOY DOLO: I like candy, so I'm won over already.
CHANDRA COLVIN: There's so many delicious things you can make with maple syrup. You know, I was actually able to go out and sugarbush this year.
[PHONE BEEPS]
Hold up. My 11th new dessert is ready to be picked up. It's a banana split ice cream cake. I got to pick it up before it melts.
MARVIN: Dessert duty calls.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Be right back.
[RUNNING FOOTSTEPS]
JOY DOLO: While we wait for Chandra to get back, let's play--
[MUSIC PLAYING]
First Things First.
[JINGLE]
That's the game where we take three items and put them in order from oldest to most recent in history. Today we have three sticky things-- superglue, molasses, and post-its. Marvin, do you know all these items?
MARVIN: Uh, not molasses.
JOY DOLO: So molasses is a super thick dark syrup that's used in baked goods like gingerbread. It's super dark brown, almost black in color. So which do you think came first, which came second, and which came most recently in history?
MARVIN: I think molasses came first.
JOY DOLO: Nice. Nice guess. Why is that?
MARVIN: Because it seems like you would be able to make it more easier than with superglue and post-its that probably use more of chemical manipulation too.
JOY DOLO: Yeah.
MARVIN: So molasses would be, one, a lot easier for people a long time to make it.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, I bet they're making molasses a long time. So we have molasses first. Do you think superglue or post-its came next?
MARVIN: Hmm. Probably superglue.
JOY DOLO: OK. All right. And then post-its last. And the reasoning behind that order?
MARVIN: Because superglue is like an adhesive. And also, post-its use both paper and adhesive.
JOY DOLO: Mmm. Yes, those are some great answers and stuff to back it up. Is that your final answer?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: All right. So we have molasses, and then superglue, and then post-its.
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Yes. All right. Great guesses. We'll hear the answers at the end of the show after the credits.
MARVIN: So make like syrup and stick around.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY DOLO: We're working on an episode all about the Girl Scouts. Girl Scouts earn badges for gaining special skills, from first aid to good sportsmanship to cooking a delectable dinner. And we want to know if you could give a badge to an important person in your life, what badge would you give them and why?
For me, I would give my husband a I-make-yummy-food badge because he makes yummy food with cheese on it. What about you, Marvin? Is there someone in your life who deserves a badge for something?
MARVIN: Probably mom because I would give it to her for being the best mom.
JOY DOLO: The best mom badge, all right. That's great. Listeners, we want to hear from you, too. Record yourself describing who you would give a badge to and what it would be for, and send it to us at foreverago.org/contact.
MARVIN: You can also send us questions and fan art.
JOY DOLO: Yes, like your own vision board for Forever Ago or a picture of me thumb wrestling a tree frog with one hand and a koala with the other. I can't wait to see it.
NARRATOR: Brains On! Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Forever Ago, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
[AIRCRAFT ROARING]
ALIEN: It's Alien Exercise Hour. Hi-yah! Hoo-ha! While I stretch my snoodles and bounce on my trampoline, I'll listen to a new podcast. [LAUGHS]
[BUZZER BEEPS]
I'm going to try Smash Boom Best, the best debate podcast ever.
[SCI-FI BEEP]
NARRATOR: Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command.
[HIP-HOP MUSIC]
Drop the beat
Ladies and gentlemen, it's team judge of Smash Boom Best
I'd like to start with a few rhymes
Uh, yo
Catch me in the rabbit hole
Dazzled by a magic show
By the--
ALIEN: Zap. Come back here, podcast.
[ELECTRONIC BEEP]
Must listen to Smash Boom Best now!
[WHOOSH]
NARRATOR: Listen to Smash Boom Best wherever you get your podcasts.
[THEME MUSIC]
JOY DOLO: You're listening to Forever Ago. I'm Joy.
MARVIN: I'm Marvin.
CHANDRA COLVIN: And I'm Chandra. I'm back and full of banana split ice cream cake. I would give it a solid 7 out of 10. But today we're talking about a different sweet treat, maple syrup.
JOY DOLO: Before the break, we learned that Native people in North America have been tapping maple trees and making syrup for hundreds, maybe thousands of years. They call this process sugarbushing.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Sugarbushing is really important to some Native people because it's a source of food sovereignty.
MARVIN: Wait, what's sovereignty?
CHANDRA COLVIN: Good question. Basically, sovereignty means the right that Native nations have to make decisions for themselves without outside interference. And food sovereignty is Native people's ability to keep making and enjoying traditional foods, the foods that were here long before European settlers came to the Americas.
MARVIN: So those traditions don't get lost?
CHANDRA COLVIN: Exactly.
JOY DOLO: Speaking of which, Chandra, you went sugarbushing not too long, right?
CHANDRA COLVIN: Yeah, I stopped by Porky's Sugarbush Camp. It's not too far outside of Minneapolis, Minnesota. They've been making maple syrup for 50 years now, and every year they invite the community out to help make maple syrup and sugar.
MARVIN: That's cool. Did you get to collect sap from the trees.
CHANDRA COLVIN: By the time I got there, they'd already collected all the sap and boiled it in these big, black kettles. To make just one gallon of syrup, you need to boil down 40 gallons of sap. That's about enough to fill a bathtub. So you can imagine how long that would take to boil.
JOY DOLO: Oh, wow. I had no idea it took that much sap to make a gallon of syrup. That's amazing.
CHANDRA COLVIN: I know. I got to help out with canning the maple syrup, and I had to wear these thick gloves because it was really hot from boiling for so long.
MARVIN: So what was your favorite part?
CHANDRA COLVIN: I think being able to just smell the sweet scent of the sap. They also let me taste the syrup. To me, it was more watery than the kind you get at the store. And it had a smoky taste from the wood fire.
MARVIN: Did you learn anything new about sugarbushing?
CHANDRA COLVIN: I learned how much patience it takes to make maple syrup. You have to be patient in collecting the sap and patient when boiling it. But it's worth the wait once you finally get to taste it.
JOY DOLO: There's nothing better than maple syrup on your waffles or pancakes.
MARVIN: Totally. Thanks so much for sharing all your reporting with us, Chandra.
JOY DOLO: Rock star reporting. I hope I get to go sugarbushing too someday. It sounds amazing.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Thanks for having me and making my vision board dreams come true. Now I just have to tackle my 12th dessert, brown sugar soufflé pancakes. Want to get some with me?
MARVIN: Do some tree frogs have opposable thumbs?
JOY DOLO & MARVIN: Yeah, we want to eat pancakes.
CHANDRA COLVIN: Wait, tree frogs have opposable thumbs?
JOY DOLO: Just like koalas and Jason Momoa. Don't worry, we'll fill you in over pancakes.
[THEME MUSIC]
Native people in what's now called North America have been making maple syrup for hundreds, if not thousands of years.
MARVIN: There are many Native stories about the origins of maple syrup, and it's a very important tradition for some tribes.
JOY DOLO: It starts every spring by collecting tree sap and boiling it down into syrup.
MARVIN: It takes a lot of time and dedication and patience to make the maple syrup, but it's worth it.
JOY DOLO: This episode was written by Chandra Colvin and--
RUBY GUTHRIE: Ruby Guthrie.
JOY DOLO: It was produced and fact checked by--
NICO GONZALEZ WISLER: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
JOY DOLO: And edited by--
SHAHLA FARZAN: Shahla Farzan.
JOY DOLO: Engineering help from Josh Savageau with sound design by--
RACHEL BREES: Rachel Brees.
JOY DOLO: Original theme music by--
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
JOY DOLO: We had additional production help from the rest of the Brains On! Universe team.
MOLLY BLOOM: Molly Bloom.
ROSIE DUPONT: Rosie DuPont.
ANNA GOLDFIELD: Anna Goldfield.
LAUREN HUMBERT: Lauren Humbert.
JOSHUA RAY: Joshua Ray.
REBECCA RAND: Rebecca Rand.
MARC SANCHEZ: Marc Sanchez.
SANDEN TOTTEN: Sanden Totten.
CHARLOTTE TRAVER: Charlotte Traver.
ANNA WEGGEL: Anna Weggel.
JOY DOLO: And--
ARON WOLDESLASSIE: Aron Woldeslassie.
JOY DOLO: Beth Pearlman is our executive producer. And the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to Forest Hunt, Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe elders Shirley Boyd and Bette Sam, Travis Zimmerman, Jim Seamus, Deb White, Porky's Sugarbush Camp, and Leah Lemm.
MARVIN: And if you want access to ad-free episodes and special bonus stuff, subscribe to our Smarty Pass.
JOY DOLO: OK, Marvin. Are you ready to hear the answers for First Things First?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Yes. OK, so as a reminder, you said that molasses was first and then superglue and then post-its. Here we go.
[VOCALIZING]
Tongue drum roll.
[VOCALIZING]
Nobody can see my face, but you got it right.
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: Yes, yes. Really great guessing. So first up, you're right, molasses. And that was traced back to 500 BC. That goes back to India.
So that means it's more than 2000 years old, which is the oldest, right? So molasses is made by pressing sugar cane into juice then boiling the sugary juice down until it thickens. In 1919, there was a great molasses flood in Boston, Massachusetts. A giant barrel of molasses exploded and over 2 million gallons of molasses flooded the streets. That sounds like quite the sticky situation.
MARVIN: Yeah.
JOY DOLO: And then you were right again. Next up, it was superglue. Glue And that was made in 1942. So superglue was invented by accident.
During World War II, A scientist named Doctor Harry Coover was working with chemicals, trying to develop a clear plastic for the military. However, the chemicals were always too sticky, which made them impossible to work with.
He later figured out he could use those chemicals to make a sticky glue that we call superglue today. I can't tell you how many times I've opened a superglue and had my fingers stick together. Have you had that happen before too?
MARVIN: Yes.
JOY DOLO: And it's just-- thanks so much, Doctor Harry Coover. You made my fingers stick together. And last but certainly not least, is post-its. And that was invented in 1977.
So post-its were released in 1977. And they originally were called Press 'n Peels. I like that name more than post-its, Press 'n Peels.
It all started when a scientist named Spencer Silver invented an adhesive that could both hold paper together but also allow the papers to be taken apart without tearing them. Years later, one of Silver's co-workers was at church singing and wished he could bookmark his hymns without damaging the pages. He realized Silver's adhesive would be perfect to make reusable sticky bookmarks, and the post-it was born.
I have also used a post-it as a bookmark as well. So thank you, Spencer Silver. What do you find interesting about these facts here?
MARVIN: Probably how the superglue was made during World War II because I was not expecting that.
JOY DOLO: Yeah, yeah, me neither. I think you did really great guessing with the adhesive and the adhesive paper combo. That was really smart, and that seems like that was the order it was created. Good job, Marvin.
We'll be back next week with a new episode about the Girl Scouts.
MARVIN: Thanks for listening.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
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