APM Studios
December 18, 2024
Songs of the Humpback Whale: How one record helped save the whales
Subscribe
We have a real whale of a story for you this week! It’s a FIN-tastic classic. Joy and cohost Mina meet up with Hugh the humpback whale to hear the story of Marie Fish, a real-life biologist who used underwater microphones to show the world that life under the sea is full of sounds. Then, they’ll hear how scientist Roger Payne changed the course of history for whales by releasing a record of their songs. Don’t forget a splashy new First Things First!
A huge thank you to Science Friday’s podcast “Undiscovered” for sharing a recording of their interview with Roger Payne. This episode also includes recordings from Whale.org, Ocean Alliance and the Cornell Lab of Ornithology’s Library.
Want to learn more about how and why whales make songs and clicks?Check out Brains On episode about whale communication here.
Audio Transcript
Download transcript (PDF)
MINA: Joy, it's so nice of you to give me my first job as a sandwich maker. But why did you decide to set up your shop underwater?
JOY: Oh, hey, Mina. I'm so happy to have your help. I'm expecting huge crowds for the grand opening of Hold the Mayo, Joy Sub Subshop. It's a submarine sandwich shop that does not allow mayonnaise on anything. And it's the first of its kind.
MINA: Do you mean the first not to give its customers the option of the popular condiment mayonnaise?
JOY: Yes, but that's not all. It's also the first submarine shop housed in an actual submarine under the ocean.
MINA: Yeah. About that, is there a lot of interest in underwater sandwiches?
JOY: Without mayo.
MINA: Right, underwater sandwiches without mayo. But won't the sandwiches get soggy and fall apart?
JOY: Listen to this, Mina, OK? Lean in. Scientists know more about the surface of the moon than they do about what lies on the ocean floor. There is so much untapped sandwich potential down here.
MINA: But Joy, how many passersby are really going to want a sandwich?
JOY: As soon as they find out about the strict no-mayonnaise policy, probably all of them. We just need a way to tell the locals how delicious our food is.
MINA: So you mean we need to talk to fish?
JOY: Exactly. If we can crack the code, we'll be swimming in money. Get it? Swimming? Underwater. I crack myself up. But seriously, we're going to be so rich.
MINA: One problem. I don't think fish actually have money.
JOY: Oh, minor details.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
You're listening to Forever Ago from APM Studios. I'm your host, Joy Dolo. And I'm here today with my cohost and new submarine sandwich shop partner, Mina from Albany, California. Hey, Mina.
MINA: Hi, Joy.
JOY: Mina, what's your favorite sandwich?
MINA: Probably just a basic PB&J or a-- I don't know, basic things.
JOY: OK, so the PB&J, I mean, there's so many options that you can have with that. The PB, is it crunchy? Is it smooth?
MINA: Smooth?
JOY: You like the smooth peanut butter?
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: Yeah. And is there a favorite kind of jelly that you have?
MINA: Not really. Anything that's sweet.
JOY: Anything that's sweet. When I was younger, I grew up on that grape jelly like that Concord grape purple jelly. Have you had that before?
MINA: Maybe. I've had a lot of grape jellies.
JOY: Lots of different kinds of jellies. I got you. OK, Mina, have you ever worked in a sandwich shop before?
MINA: No.
JOY: Mina, are you sure you never accidentally put on an apron and got behind a counter and threw together some turkey and cheese on a little rye?
MINA: Oh, yeah. There was this one time.
JOY: All right, well, have you made a sandwich for someone before?
MINA: Yes, only my brother when he just wants food.
JOY: All right. So since you have so much experience, not in a restaurant setting, what do you think will be a great menu item down here in the Sub Subshop?
MINA: A replacement for mayonnaise considering that there's no mayo like ketchup.
JOY: Yes, ketchup. Yes, mustard.
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: Maybe a nice taco sauce.
MINA: Maple syrup.
JOY: Nothing like a hot Bologna and maple syrup sandwich. Would you eat that?
MINA: No.
[LAUGHS]
JOY: We've still got a lot of work to do. Speaking of, I wonder when we're going to get our first--
[BUZZER]
--customer.
MINA: Is that a whale?
JOY: Yeah, and he looks hungry. OK, Dolo, focus. You can understand whale. You can understand whale. Welcome to Hold the Mayo Sandwich Shop. What can I get for you?
HUGH: Hello, Hugh Humpback here. I just wanted to swing by and welcome you to the neighborhood.
JOY: Whoa, I can understand whale. I mean, yes, yes, of course, I can. Whales are mammals. I'm a mammal. Of course, it's not too different, right?
MINA: Hi, Hugh. I'm Mina, and this is Joy. Thanks for stopping by. Is it this easy to communicate with all undersea creatures?
HUGH: Whoa.
[LAUGHS]
Does an octopus lose at hide and seek? Are shrimp allergic to shellfish? Are clownfish funny? No, no, and, surprisingly, no. And you, my friends, do not speak whale. I speak English.
JOY: I got you.
MINA: Makes sense.
HUGH: In my nearly 75 years in this big blue ocean, I've seen lots of things, including a set of laminated encyclopedias which helped me learn to read. Then, I spent a decade or so swimming next to cruise ships and eavesdropping on the humans' conversations. I picked up the language pretty quick, actually.
JOY: Hugh, you look familiar to me. Did you pose for a line of T-shirts back in the early 1990s?
HUGH: Let me think.
JOY: It was baby blue, and it said "save the whales" on it.
MINA: Oh, I've seen that phrase all over the place.
JOY: Yeah, the shirt had a picture of a whale majestically jumping out of the water. It looked just like you.
HUGH: That was totally me. Those were my whale modeling days. What a trip.
MINA: So Hugh, have people always been obsessed with whales?
HUGH: Yes, but not always in a good way. Whales used to be hunted. It's estimated that there were only a few thousand humpback whales left in the world at one point.
JOY: Whoa, seriously?
HUGH: Seriously. But whale hunting is much less common these days, so humpback whales are doing much better. There are 80,000 of us now. Anyway, I--
[FISH NOISE]
JOY: What's with all the angelfish?
HUGH: Just some adoring fans. They want me to sing a little. Hold on. This will only take a second.
[CLEARS THROAT]
[WHALE SOUND]
MINA: That was beautiful.
JOY: Yeah, your voice is amazing.
HUGH: Yeah, us humpback whales have been singing songs like that for the last, I don't know, 50 million years. So we've had a lot of time to practice. Of course, you may recognize my voice from the record I was on in the 1970s-- "Songs of the Humpback Whale."
JOY: Hold the mayo. You were on a record?
MINA: Those flat, pizza-sized disks with little grooves on them that people use to listen to music?
HUGH: Yes, that record is one of the main reasons us whales have survived on this planet. After a human scientist named Roger Payne heard our voices, he tried to get as many people as possible to listen. And it was such a hit. It inspired humans to come up with phrases like "save the whales" and make new laws to protect us.
MINA: OK, now I have to know everything.
HUGH: Done and done. I love to hear myself talk. Say, Joy--
JOY: Hmm?
HUGH: Do you have Wi-Fi on this sub? I want to connect my phone.
JOY: Of course. And you have a phone?
HUGH: There are so many down here. People drop them all the time trying to get my pic on whale watching tours. Now, I have a little video I want to play. It's about Marie Fish.
MINA: A fish named Marie?
HUGH: Actually, she was a human like you. She was a real historical person. And her last name just happened to be fish.
JOY: Oh, OK, that makes much more sense.
MINA: OK, I got it.
HUGH: Marie let the world in on a secret. The oceans are full of sounds. And speaking of secrets, Joy, the Wi-Fi password?
JOY: Oh, yeah. It's m-a-y-0-_-H-8-t-3-r.
MINA: Sheesh, Joy, you really don't like mayo.
HUGH: OK, I'm connected. Check it out.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
HOST: The year was 1946. The skies were filled with commercial airplanes. And people dressed up in real fancy clothes to fly. Big band jazz ruled the radio. The US and its allies had just won World War II-- a huge war where lots of battles were fought using submarines.
Even though the war was over, the US Navy was still on high alert. They were on the lookout for enemy submarines. Enter biologist Marie Fish.
MARIE: Hello. Yes, 1946 was when the Navy asked for my help to tell the difference between submarine sounds and sea creature sounds. Until then, most people didn't think there was much noise under the surface of the ocean at all.
I used special underwater microphones called hydrophones to record the deep. And what I heard was astounding.
[UNDERWATER SOUNDS]
Far from quiet, the ocean was alive with chatter. I recorded and cataloged everything from the sounds of seahorses to spotted goatfish. Overall, I was able to identify the sounds of 180 different kinds of fish.
HUGH: Splish splash, I just got a notification that there's a new episode of Brains On! And it's all about whales.
JOY: Good timing.
MINA: It looks like their episode is all about whale communication.
HUGH: Glad I'm subscribed.
JOY: So did biologist Marie Fish help record the album you were on?
HUGH: No, that didn't happen for another couple decades with the help of Roger Payne.
JOY: Oh, yeah. Of course, famous music producer Roger Payne. I've totally, totally heard of him before.
HUGH: Actually, he was another biologist looking for a way to help whales.
JOY: Yes, I meant Roger Payne, the famous biologist, of course. Yes, of course.
MINA: Why did whales need help?
HUGH: Well, around the time Marie Fish was recording all those sea creatures with her underwater microphone, things weren't looking too good for us whales. As I mentioned, humans had been hunting whales for thousands of years. They called it whaling. Honestly, I don't even like saying that word.
MINA: Oh, I've heard about this. They would use whale fat or blubber to make oil. And oil was used in all sorts of things like soap and margarine.
JOY: And it was an especially big deal before natural gas and electricity were discovered in the 1800s. People also used the blubber oil to make candles and oil-burning lamps.
HUGH: Yes. Like I said, not good. By the 1950s, whaling had become a huge business for countries like the United States, Japan, Norway, and Iceland.
JOY: I'm guessing this is before the phrase "save the whales" became popular.
HUGH: That's right. Those were some dark days for us whales. Humans needed to see whales as more than oil-making blubber machines before they would stop hunting us. Roger Payne knew this. And he knew humans were suckers for a great song.
JOY: Oh, who doesn't love a great song?
(SINGING) I knew I love a good song
It made me think about whales
But before we get to that, let's take a break and play First Things First. This is the game where we take three things from history and try to put them in order of which came first, second, and most recent in time.
Today, we have three stories with whales in them. We've got Pinocchio, Moby Dick, and 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas. Mina, have you read any of these stories?
MINA: Not many of them, but I know the main plot for some of them.
JOY: Yeah, yeah, that's cool. That's all right. I know Pinocchio. I know that one because of Disney. And then Moby Dick and 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas, I've never read it, but I've heard of it before.
Out of these three, which do you think came first? Which came second? And which came most recently in history?
MINA: Well, I know they're all very old because--
JOY: Yes.
MINA: --they seem old. Probably Moby Dick first because I think it includes whale hunting. And that seemed a while ago.
JOY: Yeah, yeah.
MINA: Then, probably 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea because not that much logic behind it. But probably that's a second. They're all really old. And most recently, Pinocchio because it's a doll that comes to life, which seems sort of recent and stuff. And also, there's lots of Disney productions or whatever about that. So that seems sort of recent-ish.
JOY: Yeah, I totally-- I'm on board with that. Pinocchio does seem the most recent because we got a wooden doll. And that just seems like something that's modern in a way. And then whale hunting is being the first, that makes sense too. Track it. And 20,000 Leagues, we don't know much about it, but we'll find out.
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: We'll hear the answers at the end of the episode right after the credits.
MINA: So stick around.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY: Mina, if you could communicate with any type of animal, which would you want to talk with?
MINA: Probably cats, or more specifically, my cats, Indigo and Olive. That seems like we could get a lot more comfortable with each other if they were-- if we were able to communicate.
JOY: Yes, all the cat people of the world rejoice. Oh, that's great. Listeners, we asked you the same thing. And here's what you had to say.
TEDDY: If I could talk to any animal, it would be a cheetah, because then I could ride the cheetah and be able to race the cheetah.
FIONA: Hi, my name is Fiona from Bar Harbor, Maine. And I think if I could talk to any animal, it would be a koala or a dog.
MAX: If I could communicate with any animal, I would communicate with a bird. Because I can ask the bird, hey, do you want me to ride on you? And the bird will soar, and then I'll ride on him.
CAROLINE: And the animal that I would like to communicate is a fox because they're just so beautiful. And also, there is a song called "What Does the Fox Say?" And I just really want to know what they're saying because of that song. And also, they probably have some interesting story.
JOY: Thanks, Teddy, Fiona, Max, and Caroline for sending in your awesome animal ideas. Listeners, if you have episode ideas or questions, send it to us at foreverago.org/contact.
MINA: You can also send fan art.
JOY: Yes, like a drawing of our underwater submarine sandwich shop, Hold the Mayo.
MINA: Keep listening.
ANNA: Brains On! Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Forever Ago, we know you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
ROBOT: Forever Ago, I'm their biggest fan. I also love Smash Boom Best, a fun debate podcast for kids and families. Listen, I will play you Smash Boom Best. You will love.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MAN: To refresh your memory, The Ugly Duckling goes like this. A bunch of duck eggs hatch. And the cute little ducklings go quack, quack, quack. Mother Duck is super happy with her eggs when crack, the last one explodes and out comes this--
ROBOT: Zorp. Where did the signal go? Must find Smash Boom Best now.
ANNA: Listen to Smash Boom Best wherever you get your podcasts.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY: You're listening to Forever Ago. I'm Joy.
MINA: And I'm Mina.
HUGH: Are we saying our names? Is that it? OK, this is fun. I'm Hugh, the humpback whale.
MINA: We just heard all about Marie Fish, a biologist, not an actual fish.
JOY: Marie made underwater recordings that help people understand that sea creatures are far from quiet.
HUGH: She didn't record me, though, because I'm sure she would have remembered this.
[WHALE SOUND]
Here, let me play a clip from that video again. Roll the tape.
HOST: The year was 1967. There were no mobile phones or laptop computers. A little restaurant named McDonald's had just sold the first Big Mac hamburger. Rock and roll ruled the airwaves. And a curious scientist named Roger Payne wanted to make sure The Beatles weren't the only animals topping the charts.
ROGER: I'm Roger Payne. I'm a biologist. I've studied whales and the oceans. And my specialty, really, I guess, is ocean acoustics.
HOST: Acoustics, the study of sound. Roger wanted to help the dwindling population of whales. Listen in to what he told Science Friday's podcast undiscovered in 2018.
ROGER: It was known at the time that whales make noises-- lots of them. And I figured if I could find something that would interest people, capture their fantasy, that maybe I would have a chance to have some sort of effect. People were killing about 33,000 baleen whales-- the big ones-- a year. And that was causing just absolute disaster.
HOST: Around the same time, a guy named Frank Watlington got in touch with Roger. Frank was monitoring ocean sounds for the US Navy. From time to time while he was listening for enemy submarines, he recorded what he thought were whales. Frank invited Roger aboard his ship to have a listen.
ROGER: He had made a spectacular tape. He played for me in the engine room of his research vessel. And he took a tape out of his pocket and put it onto an old tape recorder that was in the corner. And as he did so, he shouted, saying, I think it's a humpback whale.
[WHALE SOUND]
The sounds that I heard were absolutely transforming. And I thought to myself immediately at that point, if we could get humanity to hear these sounds, we could get them interested in whales.
HUGH: Oh, this is the part where Roger becomes obsessed with these sounds. He even rigged an alarm clock to play them when he woke up every morning.
MINA: Oh, I want a whale alarm.
HUGH: There's no snooze button on this whale.
ROGER: And as I listened, I realized this thing is repeating itself. And when any animal repeats itself in a rhythmic way, it is said to be singing, whether it is a cricket or a frog or a bird. And it was perfectly clear that by any definition at all of what a song is, whales were singing songs.
HUGH: Roger put together a playlist of his favorite whale songs and released the record called "Songs of the Humpback Whale" in 1970. It was pretty much an instant hit. It was released on the same record label as The Beatles. And it sold over 125,000 copies. It's still the best-selling nature sound recording of all time. Wow!
[WHALE SOUND]
In fact, it was so popular, a couple songs from the record were repackaged and mailed to over 10 million National Geographic magazine subscribers. And it really changed how people think about us whales. Instead of thinking of whales as gigantic, unknowable sea creatures, the millions of people who heard our song could imagine us in a new way.
MINA: Yeah, Roger humanized whales.
HUGH: People really connected with it on an emotional level. The record made a big splash-- pun intended. And not long after it came out, Congress passed regulations that began to stop or slow down whaling.
MINA: I guess you could say the tide was turning. Pun also intended.
JOY: Nice one. And all we had to do was listen to these gentle giants.
[WHALE SOUND]
Wow, Hugh, I'm so glad you swam by. We learned so much from you.
MINA: Yeah, whales used to be hunted for their blubber, which people used to make soap and candles.
JOY: People hunted so many whales that by the 1960s, some whale populations were nearly extinct.
MINA: A biologist named Marie Fish helped humans hear a new world of underwater sounds.
JOY: And another scientist, Roger Payne, heard music in the sounds of humpback whales.
MINA: Roger made a whole record of their music. And those sounds inspired millions to change their attitudes and help save the whales.
HUGH: Well put, Joy and Mina. Now, speaking of saving the whales, what's a guy got to do to get a sandwich around this joint?
JOY: Oh, right, I totally forgot. I'm not just Joy Dolo, the heartbreakingly talented, award-winning actor anymore. I'm also Joy Dolo, small business owner. I'm so excited. OK, Hugh, what do you want on your sandwich?
HUGH: Grilled krill on kelp bread. And don't forget--
JOY: Hold the mayo.
MINA: Hold the mayo.
JOY: This episode was written by--
MARC: Marc Sanchez.
JOY: It was produced by--
NICO: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
JOY: And--
RUBY: Ruby Guthrie.
JOY: Our editors are--
SANDEN: Sanden Totten.
JOY: And--
SHAHLA: Shahla Farzan.
JOY: Fact checking by--
JESS: Jess Miller.
JOY: Engineering help from Derrick Ramirez, Ben Wilson, and Brian Matheson with sound design by--
RACHEL: Rachel Brees.
JOY: Original theme music by--
MARC: Marc Sanchez.
JOY: We had additional production help from the rest of the Brains On! Universe team.
MOLLY: Molly Bloom.
ROSIE: Rosie duPont.
ANNA: Anna Goldfield.
LAUREN: Lauren Humpert.
JOSHUA: Joshua Ray.
CHARLOTTE: Charlotte Traver.
ANNA: Anna Weggel.
JOY: And--
ARON: Aron Woldeslassie.
JOY: Beth Perlman is our executive producer. And the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to John Dankowski, Charles Bergquist, Brant Miller, Vicki Kreckler, Coco, Wes Carroll, Audrey Cooner, and Milo.
This episode includes recordings from whale.org, Ocean Alliance, and the Cornell Lab of Ornithology Macaulay Library.
MINA: And if you want access to ad-free episodes and special bonus content, subscribe to our Smarty Pass.
JOY: OK, Mina, ready to hear the answers for First Things First?
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: Awesome. OK, as a reminder, we're putting these three stories in order of when they were written. And so you said Moby Dick, 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas, and Pinocchio. Is that your final answer?
MINA: Yes.
JOY: All right, let's see what the answer is. Oh, no.
MINA: Is it the opposite?
JOY: You got them all right.
MINA: Yay!
JOY: You nailed it. Good job. Wonderful guessing skills you have.
MINA: Thank you.
JOY: So first up, we have Moby Dick, which was written in 1851 by American Herman Melville. And so the story is about sailors, including a captain who's obsessed with seeking revenge against a giant sperm whale who bit off his leg.
And the name Moby Dick was inspired by a real sperm whale from the 1800s called Mocha Dick. Sailors encountered Mocha in Chile, where the whale reportedly destroyed over 20 ships. Mocha Dick, why'd you do that?
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: Silly whale. And then next stop, we have 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas. And that was in 1870. So this science fiction novel was written by a Frenchman, Jules Verne. And the book is about three men who go out to sea in search of a giant sea monster, possibly a whale.
They soon discover the sea monster is actually a submarine called the Nautilus, where they are taken captive by an eccentric captain. Ooh, that sounds like a role of a lifetime for me. Many of Verne's details in the book predate their actual discovery or invention, including electric powered submarines and giant squids. Oh, that sounds terrifying.
MINA: There's also colossal squids.
JOY: Oh, there's giant and colossal. Oh, giant, colossal squids. Can you imagine a world? And then last but not least is Pinocchio. The Adventures of Pinocchio was written by Italian writer Carlo Collodi in 1883.
So the story follows Pinocchio, a wooden puppet, which we were right about that, who wants to become a real boy. And at one point in the story, Pinocchio was swallowed by a dogfish, which is a type of a small shark. And this was changed to a whale in the Disney adaptation of the story. So he was originally eaten by a shark.
MINA: I much preferred to be eaten by a whale.
JOY: Yeah, me too, me too. Sharks sound like a lot of teeth involved and wouldn't end well. Well, now we know that he didn't get eaten by a whale or a dogfish. That was a shark and then turned into a whale. Thanks, Disney.
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: Great job guessing First Things First, Mina. Listeners, this is our last episode of the season. But we'll be back with new episodes next May. Thank you so much for listening to our show. If you have a question about history, send it to us at foreverago.org/contact. Who knows? Maybe it will inspire an episode for next season. See you then.
MINA: Thanks for listening. Ciao for now.
JOY: You've been promoted. You're Employee of the Month, Mina.
MINA: Yay! Aren't I your only employee?
JOY: OK, that's enough sass out of you.
JOY: Oh, hey, Mina. I'm so happy to have your help. I'm expecting huge crowds for the grand opening of Hold the Mayo, Joy Sub Subshop. It's a submarine sandwich shop that does not allow mayonnaise on anything. And it's the first of its kind.
MINA: Do you mean the first not to give its customers the option of the popular condiment mayonnaise?
JOY: Yes, but that's not all. It's also the first submarine shop housed in an actual submarine under the ocean.
MINA: Yeah. About that, is there a lot of interest in underwater sandwiches?
JOY: Without mayo.
MINA: Right, underwater sandwiches without mayo. But won't the sandwiches get soggy and fall apart?
JOY: Listen to this, Mina, OK? Lean in. Scientists know more about the surface of the moon than they do about what lies on the ocean floor. There is so much untapped sandwich potential down here.
MINA: But Joy, how many passersby are really going to want a sandwich?
JOY: As soon as they find out about the strict no-mayonnaise policy, probably all of them. We just need a way to tell the locals how delicious our food is.
MINA: So you mean we need to talk to fish?
JOY: Exactly. If we can crack the code, we'll be swimming in money. Get it? Swimming? Underwater. I crack myself up. But seriously, we're going to be so rich.
MINA: One problem. I don't think fish actually have money.
JOY: Oh, minor details.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
You're listening to Forever Ago from APM Studios. I'm your host, Joy Dolo. And I'm here today with my cohost and new submarine sandwich shop partner, Mina from Albany, California. Hey, Mina.
MINA: Hi, Joy.
JOY: Mina, what's your favorite sandwich?
MINA: Probably just a basic PB&J or a-- I don't know, basic things.
JOY: OK, so the PB&J, I mean, there's so many options that you can have with that. The PB, is it crunchy? Is it smooth?
MINA: Smooth?
JOY: You like the smooth peanut butter?
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: Yeah. And is there a favorite kind of jelly that you have?
MINA: Not really. Anything that's sweet.
JOY: Anything that's sweet. When I was younger, I grew up on that grape jelly like that Concord grape purple jelly. Have you had that before?
MINA: Maybe. I've had a lot of grape jellies.
JOY: Lots of different kinds of jellies. I got you. OK, Mina, have you ever worked in a sandwich shop before?
MINA: No.
JOY: Mina, are you sure you never accidentally put on an apron and got behind a counter and threw together some turkey and cheese on a little rye?
MINA: Oh, yeah. There was this one time.
JOY: All right, well, have you made a sandwich for someone before?
MINA: Yes, only my brother when he just wants food.
JOY: All right. So since you have so much experience, not in a restaurant setting, what do you think will be a great menu item down here in the Sub Subshop?
MINA: A replacement for mayonnaise considering that there's no mayo like ketchup.
JOY: Yes, ketchup. Yes, mustard.
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: Maybe a nice taco sauce.
MINA: Maple syrup.
JOY: Nothing like a hot Bologna and maple syrup sandwich. Would you eat that?
MINA: No.
[LAUGHS]
JOY: We've still got a lot of work to do. Speaking of, I wonder when we're going to get our first--
[BUZZER]
--customer.
MINA: Is that a whale?
JOY: Yeah, and he looks hungry. OK, Dolo, focus. You can understand whale. You can understand whale. Welcome to Hold the Mayo Sandwich Shop. What can I get for you?
HUGH: Hello, Hugh Humpback here. I just wanted to swing by and welcome you to the neighborhood.
JOY: Whoa, I can understand whale. I mean, yes, yes, of course, I can. Whales are mammals. I'm a mammal. Of course, it's not too different, right?
MINA: Hi, Hugh. I'm Mina, and this is Joy. Thanks for stopping by. Is it this easy to communicate with all undersea creatures?
HUGH: Whoa.
[LAUGHS]
Does an octopus lose at hide and seek? Are shrimp allergic to shellfish? Are clownfish funny? No, no, and, surprisingly, no. And you, my friends, do not speak whale. I speak English.
JOY: I got you.
MINA: Makes sense.
HUGH: In my nearly 75 years in this big blue ocean, I've seen lots of things, including a set of laminated encyclopedias which helped me learn to read. Then, I spent a decade or so swimming next to cruise ships and eavesdropping on the humans' conversations. I picked up the language pretty quick, actually.
JOY: Hugh, you look familiar to me. Did you pose for a line of T-shirts back in the early 1990s?
HUGH: Let me think.
JOY: It was baby blue, and it said "save the whales" on it.
MINA: Oh, I've seen that phrase all over the place.
JOY: Yeah, the shirt had a picture of a whale majestically jumping out of the water. It looked just like you.
HUGH: That was totally me. Those were my whale modeling days. What a trip.
MINA: So Hugh, have people always been obsessed with whales?
HUGH: Yes, but not always in a good way. Whales used to be hunted. It's estimated that there were only a few thousand humpback whales left in the world at one point.
JOY: Whoa, seriously?
HUGH: Seriously. But whale hunting is much less common these days, so humpback whales are doing much better. There are 80,000 of us now. Anyway, I--
[FISH NOISE]
JOY: What's with all the angelfish?
HUGH: Just some adoring fans. They want me to sing a little. Hold on. This will only take a second.
[CLEARS THROAT]
[WHALE SOUND]
MINA: That was beautiful.
JOY: Yeah, your voice is amazing.
HUGH: Yeah, us humpback whales have been singing songs like that for the last, I don't know, 50 million years. So we've had a lot of time to practice. Of course, you may recognize my voice from the record I was on in the 1970s-- "Songs of the Humpback Whale."
JOY: Hold the mayo. You were on a record?
MINA: Those flat, pizza-sized disks with little grooves on them that people use to listen to music?
HUGH: Yes, that record is one of the main reasons us whales have survived on this planet. After a human scientist named Roger Payne heard our voices, he tried to get as many people as possible to listen. And it was such a hit. It inspired humans to come up with phrases like "save the whales" and make new laws to protect us.
MINA: OK, now I have to know everything.
HUGH: Done and done. I love to hear myself talk. Say, Joy--
JOY: Hmm?
HUGH: Do you have Wi-Fi on this sub? I want to connect my phone.
JOY: Of course. And you have a phone?
HUGH: There are so many down here. People drop them all the time trying to get my pic on whale watching tours. Now, I have a little video I want to play. It's about Marie Fish.
MINA: A fish named Marie?
HUGH: Actually, she was a human like you. She was a real historical person. And her last name just happened to be fish.
JOY: Oh, OK, that makes much more sense.
MINA: OK, I got it.
HUGH: Marie let the world in on a secret. The oceans are full of sounds. And speaking of secrets, Joy, the Wi-Fi password?
JOY: Oh, yeah. It's m-a-y-0-_-H-8-t-3-r.
MINA: Sheesh, Joy, you really don't like mayo.
HUGH: OK, I'm connected. Check it out.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
HOST: The year was 1946. The skies were filled with commercial airplanes. And people dressed up in real fancy clothes to fly. Big band jazz ruled the radio. The US and its allies had just won World War II-- a huge war where lots of battles were fought using submarines.
Even though the war was over, the US Navy was still on high alert. They were on the lookout for enemy submarines. Enter biologist Marie Fish.
MARIE: Hello. Yes, 1946 was when the Navy asked for my help to tell the difference between submarine sounds and sea creature sounds. Until then, most people didn't think there was much noise under the surface of the ocean at all.
I used special underwater microphones called hydrophones to record the deep. And what I heard was astounding.
[UNDERWATER SOUNDS]
Far from quiet, the ocean was alive with chatter. I recorded and cataloged everything from the sounds of seahorses to spotted goatfish. Overall, I was able to identify the sounds of 180 different kinds of fish.
HUGH: Splish splash, I just got a notification that there's a new episode of Brains On! And it's all about whales.
JOY: Good timing.
MINA: It looks like their episode is all about whale communication.
HUGH: Glad I'm subscribed.
JOY: So did biologist Marie Fish help record the album you were on?
HUGH: No, that didn't happen for another couple decades with the help of Roger Payne.
JOY: Oh, yeah. Of course, famous music producer Roger Payne. I've totally, totally heard of him before.
HUGH: Actually, he was another biologist looking for a way to help whales.
JOY: Yes, I meant Roger Payne, the famous biologist, of course. Yes, of course.
MINA: Why did whales need help?
HUGH: Well, around the time Marie Fish was recording all those sea creatures with her underwater microphone, things weren't looking too good for us whales. As I mentioned, humans had been hunting whales for thousands of years. They called it whaling. Honestly, I don't even like saying that word.
MINA: Oh, I've heard about this. They would use whale fat or blubber to make oil. And oil was used in all sorts of things like soap and margarine.
JOY: And it was an especially big deal before natural gas and electricity were discovered in the 1800s. People also used the blubber oil to make candles and oil-burning lamps.
HUGH: Yes. Like I said, not good. By the 1950s, whaling had become a huge business for countries like the United States, Japan, Norway, and Iceland.
JOY: I'm guessing this is before the phrase "save the whales" became popular.
HUGH: That's right. Those were some dark days for us whales. Humans needed to see whales as more than oil-making blubber machines before they would stop hunting us. Roger Payne knew this. And he knew humans were suckers for a great song.
JOY: Oh, who doesn't love a great song?
(SINGING) I knew I love a good song
It made me think about whales
But before we get to that, let's take a break and play First Things First. This is the game where we take three things from history and try to put them in order of which came first, second, and most recent in time.
Today, we have three stories with whales in them. We've got Pinocchio, Moby Dick, and 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas. Mina, have you read any of these stories?
MINA: Not many of them, but I know the main plot for some of them.
JOY: Yeah, yeah, that's cool. That's all right. I know Pinocchio. I know that one because of Disney. And then Moby Dick and 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas, I've never read it, but I've heard of it before.
Out of these three, which do you think came first? Which came second? And which came most recently in history?
MINA: Well, I know they're all very old because--
JOY: Yes.
MINA: --they seem old. Probably Moby Dick first because I think it includes whale hunting. And that seemed a while ago.
JOY: Yeah, yeah.
MINA: Then, probably 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea because not that much logic behind it. But probably that's a second. They're all really old. And most recently, Pinocchio because it's a doll that comes to life, which seems sort of recent and stuff. And also, there's lots of Disney productions or whatever about that. So that seems sort of recent-ish.
JOY: Yeah, I totally-- I'm on board with that. Pinocchio does seem the most recent because we got a wooden doll. And that just seems like something that's modern in a way. And then whale hunting is being the first, that makes sense too. Track it. And 20,000 Leagues, we don't know much about it, but we'll find out.
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: We'll hear the answers at the end of the episode right after the credits.
MINA: So stick around.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY: Mina, if you could communicate with any type of animal, which would you want to talk with?
MINA: Probably cats, or more specifically, my cats, Indigo and Olive. That seems like we could get a lot more comfortable with each other if they were-- if we were able to communicate.
JOY: Yes, all the cat people of the world rejoice. Oh, that's great. Listeners, we asked you the same thing. And here's what you had to say.
TEDDY: If I could talk to any animal, it would be a cheetah, because then I could ride the cheetah and be able to race the cheetah.
FIONA: Hi, my name is Fiona from Bar Harbor, Maine. And I think if I could talk to any animal, it would be a koala or a dog.
MAX: If I could communicate with any animal, I would communicate with a bird. Because I can ask the bird, hey, do you want me to ride on you? And the bird will soar, and then I'll ride on him.
CAROLINE: And the animal that I would like to communicate is a fox because they're just so beautiful. And also, there is a song called "What Does the Fox Say?" And I just really want to know what they're saying because of that song. And also, they probably have some interesting story.
JOY: Thanks, Teddy, Fiona, Max, and Caroline for sending in your awesome animal ideas. Listeners, if you have episode ideas or questions, send it to us at foreverago.org/contact.
MINA: You can also send fan art.
JOY: Yes, like a drawing of our underwater submarine sandwich shop, Hold the Mayo.
MINA: Keep listening.
ANNA: Brains On! Universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Forever Ago, we know you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on, let's explore.
ROBOT: Forever Ago, I'm their biggest fan. I also love Smash Boom Best, a fun debate podcast for kids and families. Listen, I will play you Smash Boom Best. You will love.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
MAN: To refresh your memory, The Ugly Duckling goes like this. A bunch of duck eggs hatch. And the cute little ducklings go quack, quack, quack. Mother Duck is super happy with her eggs when crack, the last one explodes and out comes this--
ROBOT: Zorp. Where did the signal go? Must find Smash Boom Best now.
ANNA: Listen to Smash Boom Best wherever you get your podcasts.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
JOY: You're listening to Forever Ago. I'm Joy.
MINA: And I'm Mina.
HUGH: Are we saying our names? Is that it? OK, this is fun. I'm Hugh, the humpback whale.
MINA: We just heard all about Marie Fish, a biologist, not an actual fish.
JOY: Marie made underwater recordings that help people understand that sea creatures are far from quiet.
HUGH: She didn't record me, though, because I'm sure she would have remembered this.
[WHALE SOUND]
Here, let me play a clip from that video again. Roll the tape.
HOST: The year was 1967. There were no mobile phones or laptop computers. A little restaurant named McDonald's had just sold the first Big Mac hamburger. Rock and roll ruled the airwaves. And a curious scientist named Roger Payne wanted to make sure The Beatles weren't the only animals topping the charts.
ROGER: I'm Roger Payne. I'm a biologist. I've studied whales and the oceans. And my specialty, really, I guess, is ocean acoustics.
HOST: Acoustics, the study of sound. Roger wanted to help the dwindling population of whales. Listen in to what he told Science Friday's podcast undiscovered in 2018.
ROGER: It was known at the time that whales make noises-- lots of them. And I figured if I could find something that would interest people, capture their fantasy, that maybe I would have a chance to have some sort of effect. People were killing about 33,000 baleen whales-- the big ones-- a year. And that was causing just absolute disaster.
HOST: Around the same time, a guy named Frank Watlington got in touch with Roger. Frank was monitoring ocean sounds for the US Navy. From time to time while he was listening for enemy submarines, he recorded what he thought were whales. Frank invited Roger aboard his ship to have a listen.
ROGER: He had made a spectacular tape. He played for me in the engine room of his research vessel. And he took a tape out of his pocket and put it onto an old tape recorder that was in the corner. And as he did so, he shouted, saying, I think it's a humpback whale.
[WHALE SOUND]
The sounds that I heard were absolutely transforming. And I thought to myself immediately at that point, if we could get humanity to hear these sounds, we could get them interested in whales.
HUGH: Oh, this is the part where Roger becomes obsessed with these sounds. He even rigged an alarm clock to play them when he woke up every morning.
MINA: Oh, I want a whale alarm.
HUGH: There's no snooze button on this whale.
ROGER: And as I listened, I realized this thing is repeating itself. And when any animal repeats itself in a rhythmic way, it is said to be singing, whether it is a cricket or a frog or a bird. And it was perfectly clear that by any definition at all of what a song is, whales were singing songs.
HUGH: Roger put together a playlist of his favorite whale songs and released the record called "Songs of the Humpback Whale" in 1970. It was pretty much an instant hit. It was released on the same record label as The Beatles. And it sold over 125,000 copies. It's still the best-selling nature sound recording of all time. Wow!
[WHALE SOUND]
In fact, it was so popular, a couple songs from the record were repackaged and mailed to over 10 million National Geographic magazine subscribers. And it really changed how people think about us whales. Instead of thinking of whales as gigantic, unknowable sea creatures, the millions of people who heard our song could imagine us in a new way.
MINA: Yeah, Roger humanized whales.
HUGH: People really connected with it on an emotional level. The record made a big splash-- pun intended. And not long after it came out, Congress passed regulations that began to stop or slow down whaling.
MINA: I guess you could say the tide was turning. Pun also intended.
JOY: Nice one. And all we had to do was listen to these gentle giants.
[WHALE SOUND]
Wow, Hugh, I'm so glad you swam by. We learned so much from you.
MINA: Yeah, whales used to be hunted for their blubber, which people used to make soap and candles.
JOY: People hunted so many whales that by the 1960s, some whale populations were nearly extinct.
MINA: A biologist named Marie Fish helped humans hear a new world of underwater sounds.
JOY: And another scientist, Roger Payne, heard music in the sounds of humpback whales.
MINA: Roger made a whole record of their music. And those sounds inspired millions to change their attitudes and help save the whales.
HUGH: Well put, Joy and Mina. Now, speaking of saving the whales, what's a guy got to do to get a sandwich around this joint?
JOY: Oh, right, I totally forgot. I'm not just Joy Dolo, the heartbreakingly talented, award-winning actor anymore. I'm also Joy Dolo, small business owner. I'm so excited. OK, Hugh, what do you want on your sandwich?
HUGH: Grilled krill on kelp bread. And don't forget--
JOY: Hold the mayo.
MINA: Hold the mayo.
JOY: This episode was written by--
MARC: Marc Sanchez.
JOY: It was produced by--
NICO: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
JOY: And--
RUBY: Ruby Guthrie.
JOY: Our editors are--
SANDEN: Sanden Totten.
JOY: And--
SHAHLA: Shahla Farzan.
JOY: Fact checking by--
JESS: Jess Miller.
JOY: Engineering help from Derrick Ramirez, Ben Wilson, and Brian Matheson with sound design by--
RACHEL: Rachel Brees.
JOY: Original theme music by--
MARC: Marc Sanchez.
JOY: We had additional production help from the rest of the Brains On! Universe team.
MOLLY: Molly Bloom.
ROSIE: Rosie duPont.
ANNA: Anna Goldfield.
LAUREN: Lauren Humpert.
JOSHUA: Joshua Ray.
CHARLOTTE: Charlotte Traver.
ANNA: Anna Weggel.
JOY: And--
ARON: Aron Woldeslassie.
JOY: Beth Perlman is our executive producer. And the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Special thanks to John Dankowski, Charles Bergquist, Brant Miller, Vicki Kreckler, Coco, Wes Carroll, Audrey Cooner, and Milo.
This episode includes recordings from whale.org, Ocean Alliance, and the Cornell Lab of Ornithology Macaulay Library.
MINA: And if you want access to ad-free episodes and special bonus content, subscribe to our Smarty Pass.
JOY: OK, Mina, ready to hear the answers for First Things First?
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: Awesome. OK, as a reminder, we're putting these three stories in order of when they were written. And so you said Moby Dick, 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas, and Pinocchio. Is that your final answer?
MINA: Yes.
JOY: All right, let's see what the answer is. Oh, no.
MINA: Is it the opposite?
JOY: You got them all right.
MINA: Yay!
JOY: You nailed it. Good job. Wonderful guessing skills you have.
MINA: Thank you.
JOY: So first up, we have Moby Dick, which was written in 1851 by American Herman Melville. And so the story is about sailors, including a captain who's obsessed with seeking revenge against a giant sperm whale who bit off his leg.
And the name Moby Dick was inspired by a real sperm whale from the 1800s called Mocha Dick. Sailors encountered Mocha in Chile, where the whale reportedly destroyed over 20 ships. Mocha Dick, why'd you do that?
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: Silly whale. And then next stop, we have 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas. And that was in 1870. So this science fiction novel was written by a Frenchman, Jules Verne. And the book is about three men who go out to sea in search of a giant sea monster, possibly a whale.
They soon discover the sea monster is actually a submarine called the Nautilus, where they are taken captive by an eccentric captain. Ooh, that sounds like a role of a lifetime for me. Many of Verne's details in the book predate their actual discovery or invention, including electric powered submarines and giant squids. Oh, that sounds terrifying.
MINA: There's also colossal squids.
JOY: Oh, there's giant and colossal. Oh, giant, colossal squids. Can you imagine a world? And then last but not least is Pinocchio. The Adventures of Pinocchio was written by Italian writer Carlo Collodi in 1883.
So the story follows Pinocchio, a wooden puppet, which we were right about that, who wants to become a real boy. And at one point in the story, Pinocchio was swallowed by a dogfish, which is a type of a small shark. And this was changed to a whale in the Disney adaptation of the story. So he was originally eaten by a shark.
MINA: I much preferred to be eaten by a whale.
JOY: Yeah, me too, me too. Sharks sound like a lot of teeth involved and wouldn't end well. Well, now we know that he didn't get eaten by a whale or a dogfish. That was a shark and then turned into a whale. Thanks, Disney.
MINA: Yeah.
JOY: Great job guessing First Things First, Mina. Listeners, this is our last episode of the season. But we'll be back with new episodes next May. Thank you so much for listening to our show. If you have a question about history, send it to us at foreverago.org/contact. Who knows? Maybe it will inspire an episode for next season. See you then.
MINA: Thanks for listening. Ciao for now.
JOY: You've been promoted. You're Employee of the Month, Mina.
MINA: Yay! Aren't I your only employee?
JOY: OK, that's enough sass out of you.
Transcription services provided by 3Play Media.
