Are birds dinosaurs?
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RSSWhen you think of dinosaurs, you might picture giant, scaly creatures that roamed earth millions of years ago. And when you think of birds, you probably picture our fluffy, feathered, chirpy friends. But did you know that birds are actually dinosaurs?
Molly and cohost Siddharth dig into how some modern birds like chickens, evolved from dinosaurs like the T-Rex. They’ll chat with paleontologist Jingmai O’Connor about what it’s like to study dinosaurs and hear about an exciting new fossil discovery. Siddharth quizzes Molly on her animal knowledge, plus, there's a new mystery sound to be uncovered.
Featured Expert:
Jingmai O’Connor is a paleontologist and the Associate Curator of Fossil Reptiles at the Field Museum in Chicago.
Audio Transcript
Download transcript (PDF)
BOY: You're listening to Brains On. We're serious about being curious.
GIRL: Brains On is supported in part by a grant from the National Science Foundation.
DARYL: [CLUCKS] Dominique, you've hardly pecked at your corn. What's up?
DOMINIQUE: [YAWNS]
DARYL: [CLUCKS]
DOMINIQUE: Daryl, I have big dreams of flying the coop. There's just one problem. I'm scared. I'm not brave enough to chase after my dreams. [CLUCKS]
DARYL: Dominique, you can't chicken out now.
DOMINIQUE: But we are chickens.
DARYL: I mean, you gotta stand up for yourself. You got to believe in yourself.
DOMINIQUE: How the dickens am I supposed to doodle do that?
DARYL: Don't get your feathers in a ruffle. Just listen to me, Dominique. I have something to tell you-- in song form.
[PIANO PLAYING]
(SINGING) What good are wings if you don't spread them and fly?
Life is too short to let your dreams pass by
Your chicken ancestors knew this to be true
They believed in themselves
And you can too
DOMINIQUE: My chicken ancestors? Like Chicken Little? He thought the sky was falling, and boy, was he wrong.
DARYL: (SINGING) Just think of all the generations before
Such avian excellence to adore
Like your great, great, great grand chicken
What a star
He was the presidential rooster for FDR
DOMINIQUE: Yeah, the new deal was all my great, great, great grand chicken's idea.
DARYL: (SINGING) And if you go back even further just to flex
You are related to the mighty T.rex
It seems far-fetched, but hold your confusion
Birds are just tiny dinos
Thanks, evolution
DOMINIQUE: Wait a sec. Chickens like us are basically dinosaurs?
DARYL: (SINGING) Yes, it took millions and millions of years to do
But those millions of years made me and you
We're all that came before us, you just got to believe it
Cause you're chicken greatness
DOMINIQUE: (SINGING) I'm chicken greatness
DARYL: (SINGING) Yes, our chicken greatness goes back centuries
[CLUCKS]
DOMINIQUE: You're right. Watch out, world. I'm going to cross that road with my own two chicken feet, and I will get to the other side.
[PLAYFUL MUSIC]
MOLLY: You're listening to Brains On from APM Studios. I'm your host, Molly Bloom. Brains On is a nonprofit public radio program, which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are lots of ways you can support us. You can donate, become a Smarty Pass subscriber, buy our merch, or come see us live.
Head to brainson.org/fans to show your support. Thank you. All right. Today, I'm super excited because Siddharth from Houston, Texas is back as our co-host. Welcome, Siddharth.
SIDDHARTH: Hi, Molly.
MOLLY: Today's episode is about two things that you love.
SIDDHARTH: Dinosaurs and birds.
MOLLY: Right. Today, we're going to talk all about how birds are like living dinosaurs. Siddharth, I know you're a long-time fan of dinosaurs, but you've also gotten more into birds recently. So what got you interested in dinosaurs and birds in the first place?
SIDDHARTH: I first got interested into dinosaurs when I was, I think, maybe three or four. My mom got me a book, and I read it. And I really liked the illustrations, and I learned a lot from it. I think that's what sparked my interest for dinosaurs. And my later interest for birds developed when I was around 6, where my mom got a little interested into birds and I just stole her books and started reading them. And then, yeah, I got a pair of binoculars. There was like a little guide in there, and then I just started bird watching a bit. And then it slowly developed, and now I'm a really big bird watcher.
MOLLY: That is so cool. So what is your favorite bird fact that you've learned since you've started getting into birds?
SIDDHARTH: Oh, that's tough. I think my favorite bird fact is that the fastest bird ever, the peregrine falcon, can actually reach a speed of up to 240 miles per hour in a dive. And I think that's really cool because that's faster than most cars now.
MOLLY: Yeah. That's very, very fast. That's incredible. So when you see a bird, knowing that they're basically little dinosaurs, are you thinking about that when you're looking at birds or are you kind of just enjoying birds for what they are?
SIDDHARTH: I think, often, I'm often just enjoying the birds for what they are. But when I first learned that they're similar to dinosaurs, I always thought, oh, wow, that's so cool. Because when I was younger, I always thought that dinosaurs were just something way old and didn't exist anymore. But then when I learned that birds are technically living dinosaurs, when I just saw them, I was like, oh, there's a dinosaur!
MOLLY: Mm-hmm.
SIDDHARTH: And this was when I was like around six.
MOLLY: That's so cool. So you've been bird watching. Is there a certain bird you've seen that was really exciting to you that you got to spot?
SIDDHARTH: I think one of the most exciting birds that I've seen was a bird called a whooping crane. I think it's one of the rarest birds I've seen. I saw it in South Texas on a bird tour with a professor from Rice University. I think, now, there are only a couple thousand individuals of the species left, and that small area of South near Corpus Christi is one of the few areas where they live.
MOLLY: That is so cool. Are there some birds on your list that are sort of, like, these are my dream birds that I really want to see someday in person?
SIDDHARTH: Oh, yeah. A lot. There are some which I can technically find in and around Houston. But for some reason, even though I've been looking for about five years, I've just never seen one. One of them is like the painted bunting, which is a really beautiful, colorful little songbird.
MOLLY: That's really cool. I hope you spot one soon. We've had a lot of listeners curious about birds and dinosaurs too.
JULIAN: My name is Julian and my question is, why did dinosaurs evolve into birds?
ARJUN: Hi, my name is Arjun. My question is, how did the birds survive when the dinosaurs died?
MOLLY: Thanks to Julian and Arjun for sending in your questions. So yes, the birds we know and love-- ostriches, pigeons, chickadees, parrots, and peacocks-- they're all living dinosaurs.
SIDDHARTH: In fact, the closest living relatives to a T.rex are-- wait for it-- ostriches and chickens.
[CLUCKING]
MOLLY: That is wild.
SIDDHARTH: Right?
MOLLY: Scientists think that birds evolved from a special kind of dinosaur called a Theropod. Theropods had two legs, and the group includes famous dinos like T.rex and Velociraptors.
SIDDHARTH: But scientists think that the birds we know today descended from a group of much smaller Theropods.
MOLLY: How do scientists know this? Because of fossils.
SIDDHARTH: Fossils are evidence of prehistoric life.
MOLLY: We get fossils when remains of ancient living things like animal bones, teeth, or even plants are buried in rock, mud, or sand. Over time, all that stuff hardens up and becomes a fossil.
SIDDHARTH: Sometimes fossils are like a mold of whatever object was left behind, like a bone or a tooth.
MOLLY: Other times, they are an impression, like a footprint, a leaf, or even a feather. Just like if you stuck your hand in some wet concrete and your handprint hardened up.
SIDDHARTH: Today, people find these ancient fossils and use them as clues to learn about what happened in the past.
MOLLY: But when scientists first discovered dinosaur fossils in the late 1600s, they had no idea what they were looking at. They thought they were all sorts of things.
WOMAN: Ooh, look what I dug up.
MAN: Whoa. That bone is massive.
WOMAN: It has to be a giant's arm bone, don't you think?
MAN: No, no, no, no, no. That's a monster's left fibula if I've ever seen one. Trust me.
WOMAN: Oh, oh, oh oh. New idea. What if it's a dragon's tailbone?
SIDDHARTH: So people used to think dinosaur fossils were from giants or monsters.
MOLLY: As time went on and people found more and more fossils, they started to think that dinosaurs were just giant lizards that weren't around anymore.
SIDDHARTH: Right. The word dinosaur literally means fearfully great lizard in Greek.
MOLLY: But our first clue that dinosaurs might actually be related to birds came in the mid 1800s.
SIDDHARTH: Back then, people were still using horses and buggies to get around.
[HOOVES CLOPPING]
MOLLY: Trains were becoming more popular too.
[TRAIN HORN BLARING]
Plus, some of the first zippers had just been invented.
[ZIPPER ZIPS]
SIDDHARTH: And in 1861, a German paleontologist discovered a fossil of a bird-like dinosaur. Paleontologists are people who study fossils.
MOLLY: The dinosaur fossil had a small body, about the size of a raven. It also had wings, but not just any wings. Wings with feathers. This was the first discovery of a dinosaur with feathers.
SIDDHARTH: They called this new creature Archaeopteryx.
MOLLY: Even after this discovery, only a few scientists thought that birds and dinosaurs could be related.
SIDDHARTH: Lots of paleontologists argued that Archaeopteryx was just a super old bird, not a dinosaur.
MOLLY: The majority of people still believed that dinosaurs could only be giant lizards and reptiles.
SIDDHARTH: Until over 100 years later, in the 1990s.
MOLLY: The year was 1996. The kids show Arthur had just started airing on TV. The Spice Girls were taking over the radio and my heart.
SIDDHARTH: And in China, scientists had made an exciting new discovery.
[PIANO PLAYING]
They identified a bunch of dinosaur fossils with feathers.
MOLLY: These feathered fossils were different from Archaeopteryx because these dinosaurs didn't have wings. They didn't fly. They were just feathery dinos.
SIDDHARTH: Up until that point, the only animals we knew of with feathers were birds. But these fossils definitely weren't birds.
MOLLY: So if long, long ago, there were ancient dinos with feathers, and then much later, we see similar feathers on birds, it makes sense to think that those two species are directly related.
SIDDHARTH: Since then, paleontologists have found thousands of dinosaur fossils with feathers.
MOLLY: Which changed our idea of what dinosaurs looked like. We used to think they were just big lizards, but now we understand that some dinos were more bird-like.
SIDDHARTH: And our idea of dinosaurs will probably keep changing.
[HEAVY FLAPPING]
MOLLY: That's right. Every time we find a new fossil or figure out something new about the past, we get a little more information about what dinosaurs were really like. It's like we're putting an ancient puzzle together piece by piece.
SIDDHARTH: And the picture gets clearer and clearer with every new bit of evidence.
MOLLY: OK. Siddharth, we've tackled the dinosaur and bird mystery, but are you ready for a mystery for the ears? Because it's time for the--
GIRL: Shh.
(WHISPERING) Mystery sound.
MOLLY: Siddharth, are you ready to hear today's mystery sound?
SIDDHARTH: Yeah.
MOLLY: OK, here it is.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
What do you think?
SIDDHARTH: OK, so it's definitely outdoors.
MOLLY: Mm-hmm.
SIDDHARTH: There's something mechanical with some sort of electrical motor, and it was outdoors. So maybe it was like a car door opening.
MOLLY: Yeah, it's tricky. Should we hear it again?
SIDDHARTH: Yeah.
MOLLY: OK.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
OK.
SIDDHARTH: It might actually be like the trunk of a car opening now that I think about it.
MOLLY: That's a really good guess.
SIDDHARTH: Like when somebody presses a button. Maybe I'm just too focused on this idea, but--
MOLLY: No.
SIDDHARTH: I think it might be--
MOLLY: That's a really good guess. I also have no idea what this is. I heard birds. So maybe it's the bird I hired to mow my lawn with their new electric lawn mower. I don't know. We'll hear it again. We'll get another chance to guess and hear the answer after the credits, where we will find that Siddharth was probably right and I was most likely wrong.
So Siddharth, if you could bring a living, breathing dinosaur to show-and-tell at school, what kind would you bring and why?
SIDDHARTH: Oh, I'd probably bring a type of dinosaur called a Dryosaurus. I wouldn't bring any carnivorous dinosaur because it would probably either bite me or eat me.
MOLLY: Yeah.
SIDDHARTH: And probably not any large dinosaur because that would be hard. Dryosaurus is like a 5-foot tall herbivorous dinosaur, which probably wasn't aggressive and was tame. So I'd just like to think of it as maybe it could be like a large dog.
MOLLY: Hey, I love that. A little dog dino buddy to bring to school that's as tall as me. I think that's really great. Well, we asked our listeners the same question, and here's what they had to say.
ELLIE: If I could bring a dinosaur to school, I would bring an Archaeopteryx because I could play hide-and-seek with it and make a fort under my desk.
MARGOT: Hi. My name is Margot, and I would bring a gentle Triceratops so that me and my friends could ride on it. While we were riding, we could put our jackets on the Triceratops' horns.
AINSLEY: Hi, I'm Ainsley. I live in Scarborough, Maine, and the dinosaur that I would bring to show-and-tell is a Scansoriopteryx, a small winged dinosaur, so it could glide around the classroom.
EMMETT: Hi. My name is Emmett, and I would bring a blue T.rex to ride around faster on the playground.
TOBY: My name is Toby, and I live in Virginia. And I want to bring a Troodon because he could help me with my math test.
GRACE: My name is Grace, and I would bring in a Brontosaurus. I would bring in a Brontosaurus so that, at recess, the kids could climb on its head. And it would take them around the playground, and they could also slide down its back and tail.
FIN: I would bring back all of them because I like all dinosaurs.
MOLLY: Thanks to Ellie, Margot, Ainsley, Emmett, Toby, Grace, and Fin for sending your classroom companion ideas. It's clear that our listeners love dinosaurs because we heard from so many of you, so we're going to play more of your dino pal ideas at the end of the show. We love hearing from our listeners. It makes us so happy. If you want to send us something, go to brainson.org/contact while you're there. You can send us mystery sounds, drawings, and questions.
SIDDHARTH: Like this one.
CARLY: Hi. My name is Carly, and I'm from Woodstock, Georgia. And my question is, would a poisonous snake die if it bit itself? Thank you.
MOLLY: You can find answers to questions like these on the Moment of Um podcast, a short dose of facts and fun every weekday. Find Moment of Um and more at brainson.org.
SIDDHARTH: And keep listening.
WOMAN: Brains On universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Brains On, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on. Let's explore!
[ROCKET BLASTING]
ALIEN: It's alien exercise hour. Hi ya! Hoo ha! While I stretch my snoodles and bounce on my trampoline, I'll listen to a new podcast. [LAUGHS]
[BUZZ]
I'm going to try Smash Boom Best, the best debate podcast ever!
WOMAN: Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command.
MAN: Drop the beat. Ladies and gentlemen, esteemed judge of Smash Boom Best, I'd like to start with a few rhymes.
(RAPPING) Yo, catch me in the rabbit hole
Dazzled by a magic show
By the--
[BEEP]
ALIEN: Zarp! Come back here, podcast.
[MACHINE SOUNDS]
Must listen to Smash Boom Best now!
WOMAN: Listen to Smash Boom Best wherever you get your podcasts.
(SINGING) Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba, Brains On
SIDDHARTH: You're listening to Brains On. I'm Siddharth.
MOLLY: And I'm Molly.
SIDDHARTH: Before the break, we talked about how birds are like living dinosaurs.
MOLLY: Birds first evolved from a group of dinosaurs called Theropods millions of years ago. We know this because scientists have found lots of fossil evidence.
SIDDHARTH: The dinosaur-bird connection is just one example of unexpected distant relatives. The world is full of them.
MOLLY: Like how NSYNC's Lance Bass and Britney Spears are sixth cousins.
SIDDHARTH: You're full of late 1990s pop music references today, aren't you, Molly? But I was thinking about how different animals are related, like through evolution.
MOLLY: When we say different animals are related, it's not like they're siblings or cousins. It's more like they have a distant animal relative in common. Wait a second. Siddharth, when did you change into an orange sequined blazer?
SIDDHARTH: Oh, this?
MOLLY: Hey, is that my game show podium and old timey microphone?
SIDDHARTH: Yes and yes.
(ON MIC) Testing, testing. 1, 2, 3.
MOLLY: This can only mean one thing. It's game show, Siddharth.
SIDDHARTH: That's right.
MOLLY: Does that mean I get to be the contestant?
SIDDHARTH: Correct, contestant Molly. I think it's time we play a little game of--
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
WOMAN: Guess That Relative!
SIDDHARTH: For this game, I'll name an animal and then list two possible relatives. You have to guess which relative is more closely related to that animal. So for example, if I gave you the animal T.rex, would you say it's more closely related to chickens or chameleons?
MOLLY: Ooh. Chickens.
SIDDHARTH: You got it.
MOLLY: [SIGHS]
SIDDHARTH: OK, let's start. Your first animal is jellyfish. Do you think jellyfish are more closely related to a blobfish or a coral?
MOLLY: Ooh. OK. I'm going to guess blobfish because they're kind of blobby and jellyfish are kind of wiggly. Am I right?
SIDDHARTH: That is actually incorrect.
MOLLY: Oh, man.
SIDDHARTH: Jellyfish are, in fact, not fish. They're more closely related to coral than they are to any fish. They belong to the Cnidaria family. That includes coral and sea anemones.
MOLLY: Oh, my gosh. You know what? That makes a lot of sense because we did a coral episode not too long ago, and I learned about coral polyps. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. OK. Wow.
SIDDHARTH: I just listened to that one in the car.
MOLLY: Oh, you did?
SIDDHARTH: On my way here, yeah.
MOLLY: I really should have thought about that. Yeah, because baby jellyfish are also called polyps, you guys. OK, OK. I get it. I get it. I'm ready. I'm ready for the next one.
SIDDHARTH: OK. Let's talk horseshoe crabs. Do you think they're more closely related to spiders or lobsters?
MOLLY: Horseshoe crabs. Oh, man. I feel like these are extra tricky. Lobsters have shells. Horseshoe crabs have shells. Oh, man. OK, I got to say lobsters.
SIDDHARTH: The correct answer is, in fact, spiders.
MOLLY: Oh, my gosh.
SIDDHARTH: Despite their name, horseshoe crabs aren't really crabs. They're more like spiders or scorpions. They're, in fact, one of the oldest living animals. You ready for another one?
MOLLY: Yes, and I'm realizing it's much harder to be a contestant on a game show. OK, I'm ready. I'm ready.
SIDDHARTH: All right. This one is about your favorite animal, sloths.
MOLLY: [GASPS]
SIDDHARTH: Do you think sloths are more closely related to koalas or anteaters?
MOLLY: OK. I better get this right for the sloths. I talk about them a lot. OK. Come on. OK. I'm going to say anteaters.
SIDDHARTH: That is actually correct.
MOLLY: Yay! I love that you're surprised that I got it right.
[LAUGHTER]
SIDDHARTH: Even though koalas like to chill out and hang out in trees, they're not actually as closely related to sloths as anteaters.
MOLLY: [SIGHS] Thank goodness I got that right or else I would not be able to say sloths are my favorite animal anymore. What a relief.
SIDDHARTH: OK, your final animal is the great hippopotamus. Do you think hippos are more closely related to rhinos or to whales?
MOLLY: [SIGHS] Hippos. Rhinos or whales? OK. Hippos like to be in the water. So do whales. I've never seen a wet rhinoceros, so I'm going to go with whale.
SIDDHARTH: You're correct.
MOLLY: [GASPS] Oh, my gosh.
SIDDHARTH: Hippos are actually whales' closest living relative. They share a common ancestor that lived about 55 million years ago that probably lived on land. Nice work, Molly.
MOLLY: Started off weak but I gained steam towards the end. What do I win?
SIDDHARTH: Glory.
MOLLY: OK. Great job, game show Siddharth. That was excellent work.
SIDDHARTH: That's all for--
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
WOMAN: Guess That Relative!
GIRL: (SLOWED) Brains On, on, on.
MOLLY: So far, we've talked about how birds evolved from ancient dinosaurs.
SIDDHARTH: We know this based on fossils we've found of dinosaurs with feathers.
MOLLY: We also know that dinosaurs were wiped out about 66 million years ago when a giant asteroid hit Earth.
SIDDHARTH: This asteroid caused around 75% of Earth's animals to die out.
MOLLY: So if birds are living dinosaurs, why is it that birds survived the mass extinction but dinosaurs didn't?
SIDDHARTH: To learn more, we talked to paleontologist Jingmai O'Connor.
MOLLY: She's the associate curator of fossil reptiles at the Field Museum in Chicago, and she studies how birds evolved from dinos. Hi, Jingmai.
JINGMAI: Hi, Molly. Hi, Siddharth. Thank you so much for having me.
SIDDHARTH: We've got some questions for you, Jingmai. First up, how are birds and dinosaurs similar? What are their differences?
JINGMAI: OK. So this is kind of a tough question because when we think of dinosaurs, it is this incredibly diverse group. There are so many different types of dinosaurs, right? So for example, if you compare Stegosaurus to a bird, they might not seem that similar.
So what you have to do is go back to the ancestral dinosaur, the common ancestor of all dinosaurs, both alive today and extinct. So that animal was small, bipedal, warm-blooded, and covered in skin projections that we call protofeathers. So those are all things that are very similar to birds today, except feathers evolved into very complex structures in birds.
Now, what are the differences? Well, one of the biggest differences is that birds can fly. But actually, this does not separate birds from all non-bird dinosaurs. There were also other groups of dinosaurs that also evolved to be able to fly. So evolution is so complex, which makes it really difficult for us to provide simple answers to these questions.
SIDDHARTH: Did birds and dinosaurs live at the same time? And if so, what time?
JINGMAI: Absolutely. So the oldest dinosaurs appear in the Triassic, and they're about 235 million years old. The oldest birds that we know of are about 150, 155 million years. So from 155 million years ago to 66 million years ago, you have birds and non-bird dinosaurs coexisting. And then after the end-cretaceous mass extinction, the most famous mass extinction caused by this giant meteor impact, then you only have bird dinosaurs going forward.
SIDDHARTH: How did birds survive the meteor impact when all the dinosaurs went extinct?
JINGMAI: This is a very good question, and one that I'm actually hoping to be able to provide an answer to with my own research. The short answer is we don't really know. Now, one thing that's important to remember is that while, yes, birds survived this mass extinction, but not all birds survived. There were lots of lineages of Cretaceous birds that also go extinct alongside non-bird dinosaurs.
So what made the one lineage of birds that did survive different from other dinosaurs that allowed them to survive through this environmental disaster? There are several possibilities. So for example, modern birds grow really fast. So for example, have you ever seen a baby pigeon? That's because pigeons stay in the nest and grow to adult size in about three weeks, and then they fly off.
So you just never really see them as babies because they grow so quickly. So this means that if you can grow quickly, you spend a shorter period of time where you're vulnerable and you rely on your parents and you aren't as good as taking care of yourself. So if you can grow quickly, that's something that's advantageous. Also, birds have very high metabolic rates, so that may have allowed them to survive when it got cold.
Birds also have really complex and super efficient digestive systems that allow them to feed on things like detritus. So basically, that's like-- during this mass extinction, you have an impact winter. So the sun is blocked out, which means the plants die. That means the animals that eat the plants die, and the animals that eat the animals that eat the plants die, right?
But if you can eat things that-- for example, seeds from trees that were from years before. If you can eat that kind of detritus, then maybe that was an advantage that helped birds survive through this mass extinction. There are so many different reasons that we think maybe allowed this one lineage of birds to survive. It's probably a combination of all these factors. But again, like I said, sorry for that long answer. We don't really know.
SIDDHARTH: Wow, that's really cool. I actually didn't know that. What are we still learning about the connections between birds and dinosaurs?
JINGMAI: So we know that birds are living dinosaurs, but we don't know which group of non-bird dinosaurs birds are most closely related to. So there are a bunch of different hypotheses. A hypothesis is an interpretation of evidence that you seek to test by collecting more data.
I personally hypothesize that birds are a lineage, a branch of living Troodontid dinosaurs. How cool is that? But we're really not sure about this. We still need more fossils to help us better understand the relationship between birds and the dinosaurs most closely related to them.
The problem is, there's a lot of homoplasy. And homoplasy basically means that you have similar features evolving over and over again independently. So like I mentioned, we have more than one group of flying dinosaurs. There are all the dinosaurs that are closely related to birds. So even though they evolved flight separately, they're evolving similar features because they're trying to solve the similar problem of being able to fly.
SIDDHARTH: Wow, that's really interesting. Scientists actually recently discovered another ancient bird fossil in China. What do you think of this new discovery, and can you tell us more about why scientists are so excited about this new bird fossil?
JINGMAI: We totally are so excited about this new bird fossil. And it was discovered by a friend of mine, Doctor Wang Min, so I just can't say how proud I am of him. So the reason this is so exciting is because I know you guys talked about Archaeopteryx earlier, and you talked about how it was described in 1861.
So for 163 years, Archaeopteryx was the only bird we knew of from the Jurassic. It was the oldest fossil bird and the only bird from that period. And now, finally, 163 years later, we have another Jurassic bird, Baminornis. And actually, also that furcula that they described in the same paper, so two new Jurassic birds. Now, what's really, really exciting about this discovery is that if you look at the skeleton of these birds, it's very advanced.
You see a lot of features that you also see in living birds. So this means that we can push the origin of birds back deeper into the Jurassic. This means we probably should be finding bird fossils that are-- I don't know-- like 165 million years old. It's hard to say. But it definitely means there should be way more Jurassic bird fossils out there to find.
SIDDHARTH: Wow, that's a really big discovery.
MOLLY: I'm just curious, as someone who thinks about this a lot. Like, when you see birds flying around, hanging outside your house, what do you think about them?
JINGMAI: Dinosaur! I'm just kidding. Yeah. I mean, OK. I'm going to be completely honest that before I started studying birds, I paid very little attention to them. And now that I study them, I find them so fascinating, and I just can't believe that I paid them so little heed before.
And I think this is just an important message for everyone that, until we start noticing something and paying attention to something and learning about it, we really can't value it, right? And so, by studying birds and learning about just how fascinating they are, I've come to really appreciate them. And I also start to think-- look at bird like characteristics and then kind of imagine Theropod dinosaurs closely related to birds having similar characteristics.
Like, have you seen how fast birds move? You know, when they move their heads in this incredibly fast, jerky way. So you can start to imagine dinosaurs having some similar movements, styles, some similar behaviors. I mean, I think it helps us to bring dinosaurs to life. For everyone who loves dinosaurs, you got to love-- you got to love the living dinosaurs. You got to appreciate birds and see what they can teach us about the dinosaurs that are now extinct.
MOLLY: So awesome. Incredible.
SIDDHARTH: Thanks for answering our questions, Jingmai.
JINGMAI: It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited that you want to learn about dinosaurs.
MAN: Brains On!
MOLLY: Now, because there's no such thing as too many dinosaurs in a classroom-- maybe there is? Lots of them are pretty big. But anyway, here are more of your ideas about which dinos you'd like to show off at school.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
SOPHIA: Hi. My name is Sophia, at I'm from Northglenn, Colorado. And the dinosaur that I would bring back for show-and-tell would be a Stegosaurus because they only eat plants, and they are really pretty.
ETHAN: My name is Ethan from Houston, Texas, and I'll bring the Mosasaurus to show-and-tell because it's the protector of the seas.
SHEPARD: Hey. My name is Shepard, and I want to bring a Raptor to show-and-tell because you can put a saddle on it, and you can hop on it really easily, and you can also go really fast. Fun fact. Did you know Raptors are only the size of a poodle?
IRIS: Hi, my name is Iris. I'm from Memphis, Tennessee. I would bring a Diplodocus to school because me and my friends could mess around saying its name. For example, I like to say Diplodocus, and we could slide down its neck, and it wouldn't eat us because it is a herbivore.
CAROLINE: I'm Caroline from Kaysville, Utah. I would bring a baby Apatosaurus because that has been one of my favorite dinosaurs since I was little.
IAN: I'm Ian from Minnesota, and I would bring a Brontosaurus to show-and-tell because I could ride on its neck like a slide. And if I were on its head, it could sway its head back and forth, so it would act kind of like a swing.
MOLLY: Thanks to Sophia, Ethan, Shepard, Iris, Caroline, and Ian for sending in those awesome ideas.
[PLAYFUL MUSIC]
The birds we know today evolved from a certain type of dinosaur called Theropods millions and millions of years ago.
SIDDHARTH: We know that birds are related to dinosaurs because of fossils.
MOLLY: Scientists think birds survived the mass extinction because they evolved to be smaller, fly, and had beaks.
SIDDHARTH: Our understanding of dinosaurs will probably change the more and more we study and learn about them.
MOLLY: That's it for this episode of Brains On.
SIDDHARTH: This episode was written by--
RUBY: Ruby Guthrie.
MOLLY: It was edited by--
SHAHLA: Shahla Farzan.
MOLLY: And--
SANDEN: Sanden Totten.
MOLLY: We had engineering help from Alex Simpson and Shannon Harrison, with sound design by--
RACHEL: Rachel Brees.
MOLLY: And fact checking by--
REBECCA: Rebecca Rand.
MOLLY: Original theme music by--
MARC: Marc Sanchez.
SIDDHARTH: We had production help from the rest of the Brains On Universe team.
MOLLY: Molly Bloom.
ROSE: Rose DuPont.
ANNA: Anna Goldfield.
NICO: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
LAUREN: Lauren Humbert.
JOSHUA: Joshua Ray.
MARC: Marc Sanchez.
CHARLOTTE: Charlotte Trever.
ANNA: Anna Weggel.
SIDDHARTH: And--
ARON: Aron Woldeslassie.
MOLLY: Beth Pearlman is our executive producer, and the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Special Thanks to Vasudha Bharadwaj.
SIDDHARTH: Brains On is a non-profit public radio program.
MOLLY: There are lots of ways to support the show. Subscribe to Brains On Universe on YouTube, where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes, or head to brainson.org.
SIDDHARTH: While you're there, you can send us your mystery sounds, drawings, and questions.
MOLLY: OK. Siddharth, are you ready to hear the mystery sound again?
SIDDHARTH: Yep. Come on.
MOLLY: Here it is.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
Hmm. Any new thoughts? Before, you thought a trunk or a door on a car, which seems like a really good guess to me. Do you have any other thoughts? You want to stick with it? What do you think?
SIDDHARTH: I heard like a gas motor turning on. I didn't know if that-- I don't know if I heard that, but it sounded like almost like a dirt bike or a motorcycle in the background.
MOLLY: Ooh.
SIDDHARTH: I also heard something being moved around and colliding with metal or whatever, but I still think I'm going to stay with my guess. Either like a fancy door of a car being opened or like a trunk being opened.
MOLLY: Mm-hmm. I like your guess. I'm going to say a bird on a dirt bike because I heard a bird.
SIDDHARTH: Amazing guess.
MOLLY: And you thought dirt-- yeah, OK. Let's see if either of us are right.
MILO: My name is Milo, and that was the sound of me closing my van door.
MOLLY: Oh. Oh, my gosh, Siddharth. You got that 100% correct.
SIDDHARTH: Yes! I redeemed myself from last time. Last time, I had like the most horrible guess.
MOLLY: [LAUGHS] Oh, my gosh. All of that training you've been doing has really paid off. Incredible work.
SIDDHARTH: Yes!
MOLLY: Wow. You're a game show host and a successful mystery sound guesser.
[SIGHS] This is an exciting day.
SIDDHARTH: Thank you.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
MOLLY: Now it's time for the Brains Honor Roll. These are the incredible kids who keep the show going with their questions, ideas, mystery sounds, drawings, and high fives.
[LISTING HONOR ROLL]
[UPBEAT MUSIC] Brains Honor Roll
We'll be back next week with an episode all about band-aids, bruises, and scars.
SIDDHARTH: Thanks for listening!
GIRL: Brains On is supported in part by a grant from the National Science Foundation.
DARYL: [CLUCKS] Dominique, you've hardly pecked at your corn. What's up?
DOMINIQUE: [YAWNS]
DARYL: [CLUCKS]
DOMINIQUE: Daryl, I have big dreams of flying the coop. There's just one problem. I'm scared. I'm not brave enough to chase after my dreams. [CLUCKS]
DARYL: Dominique, you can't chicken out now.
DOMINIQUE: But we are chickens.
DARYL: I mean, you gotta stand up for yourself. You got to believe in yourself.
DOMINIQUE: How the dickens am I supposed to doodle do that?
DARYL: Don't get your feathers in a ruffle. Just listen to me, Dominique. I have something to tell you-- in song form.
[PIANO PLAYING]
(SINGING) What good are wings if you don't spread them and fly?
Life is too short to let your dreams pass by
Your chicken ancestors knew this to be true
They believed in themselves
And you can too
DOMINIQUE: My chicken ancestors? Like Chicken Little? He thought the sky was falling, and boy, was he wrong.
DARYL: (SINGING) Just think of all the generations before
Such avian excellence to adore
Like your great, great, great grand chicken
What a star
He was the presidential rooster for FDR
DOMINIQUE: Yeah, the new deal was all my great, great, great grand chicken's idea.
DARYL: (SINGING) And if you go back even further just to flex
You are related to the mighty T.rex
It seems far-fetched, but hold your confusion
Birds are just tiny dinos
Thanks, evolution
DOMINIQUE: Wait a sec. Chickens like us are basically dinosaurs?
DARYL: (SINGING) Yes, it took millions and millions of years to do
But those millions of years made me and you
We're all that came before us, you just got to believe it
Cause you're chicken greatness
DOMINIQUE: (SINGING) I'm chicken greatness
DARYL: (SINGING) Yes, our chicken greatness goes back centuries
[CLUCKS]
DOMINIQUE: You're right. Watch out, world. I'm going to cross that road with my own two chicken feet, and I will get to the other side.
[PLAYFUL MUSIC]
MOLLY: You're listening to Brains On from APM Studios. I'm your host, Molly Bloom. Brains On is a nonprofit public radio program, which means we rely on support from our listeners to keep the show going. There are lots of ways you can support us. You can donate, become a Smarty Pass subscriber, buy our merch, or come see us live.
Head to brainson.org/fans to show your support. Thank you. All right. Today, I'm super excited because Siddharth from Houston, Texas is back as our co-host. Welcome, Siddharth.
SIDDHARTH: Hi, Molly.
MOLLY: Today's episode is about two things that you love.
SIDDHARTH: Dinosaurs and birds.
MOLLY: Right. Today, we're going to talk all about how birds are like living dinosaurs. Siddharth, I know you're a long-time fan of dinosaurs, but you've also gotten more into birds recently. So what got you interested in dinosaurs and birds in the first place?
SIDDHARTH: I first got interested into dinosaurs when I was, I think, maybe three or four. My mom got me a book, and I read it. And I really liked the illustrations, and I learned a lot from it. I think that's what sparked my interest for dinosaurs. And my later interest for birds developed when I was around 6, where my mom got a little interested into birds and I just stole her books and started reading them. And then, yeah, I got a pair of binoculars. There was like a little guide in there, and then I just started bird watching a bit. And then it slowly developed, and now I'm a really big bird watcher.
MOLLY: That is so cool. So what is your favorite bird fact that you've learned since you've started getting into birds?
SIDDHARTH: Oh, that's tough. I think my favorite bird fact is that the fastest bird ever, the peregrine falcon, can actually reach a speed of up to 240 miles per hour in a dive. And I think that's really cool because that's faster than most cars now.
MOLLY: Yeah. That's very, very fast. That's incredible. So when you see a bird, knowing that they're basically little dinosaurs, are you thinking about that when you're looking at birds or are you kind of just enjoying birds for what they are?
SIDDHARTH: I think, often, I'm often just enjoying the birds for what they are. But when I first learned that they're similar to dinosaurs, I always thought, oh, wow, that's so cool. Because when I was younger, I always thought that dinosaurs were just something way old and didn't exist anymore. But then when I learned that birds are technically living dinosaurs, when I just saw them, I was like, oh, there's a dinosaur!
MOLLY: Mm-hmm.
SIDDHARTH: And this was when I was like around six.
MOLLY: That's so cool. So you've been bird watching. Is there a certain bird you've seen that was really exciting to you that you got to spot?
SIDDHARTH: I think one of the most exciting birds that I've seen was a bird called a whooping crane. I think it's one of the rarest birds I've seen. I saw it in South Texas on a bird tour with a professor from Rice University. I think, now, there are only a couple thousand individuals of the species left, and that small area of South near Corpus Christi is one of the few areas where they live.
MOLLY: That is so cool. Are there some birds on your list that are sort of, like, these are my dream birds that I really want to see someday in person?
SIDDHARTH: Oh, yeah. A lot. There are some which I can technically find in and around Houston. But for some reason, even though I've been looking for about five years, I've just never seen one. One of them is like the painted bunting, which is a really beautiful, colorful little songbird.
MOLLY: That's really cool. I hope you spot one soon. We've had a lot of listeners curious about birds and dinosaurs too.
JULIAN: My name is Julian and my question is, why did dinosaurs evolve into birds?
ARJUN: Hi, my name is Arjun. My question is, how did the birds survive when the dinosaurs died?
MOLLY: Thanks to Julian and Arjun for sending in your questions. So yes, the birds we know and love-- ostriches, pigeons, chickadees, parrots, and peacocks-- they're all living dinosaurs.
SIDDHARTH: In fact, the closest living relatives to a T.rex are-- wait for it-- ostriches and chickens.
[CLUCKING]
MOLLY: That is wild.
SIDDHARTH: Right?
MOLLY: Scientists think that birds evolved from a special kind of dinosaur called a Theropod. Theropods had two legs, and the group includes famous dinos like T.rex and Velociraptors.
SIDDHARTH: But scientists think that the birds we know today descended from a group of much smaller Theropods.
MOLLY: How do scientists know this? Because of fossils.
SIDDHARTH: Fossils are evidence of prehistoric life.
MOLLY: We get fossils when remains of ancient living things like animal bones, teeth, or even plants are buried in rock, mud, or sand. Over time, all that stuff hardens up and becomes a fossil.
SIDDHARTH: Sometimes fossils are like a mold of whatever object was left behind, like a bone or a tooth.
MOLLY: Other times, they are an impression, like a footprint, a leaf, or even a feather. Just like if you stuck your hand in some wet concrete and your handprint hardened up.
SIDDHARTH: Today, people find these ancient fossils and use them as clues to learn about what happened in the past.
MOLLY: But when scientists first discovered dinosaur fossils in the late 1600s, they had no idea what they were looking at. They thought they were all sorts of things.
WOMAN: Ooh, look what I dug up.
MAN: Whoa. That bone is massive.
WOMAN: It has to be a giant's arm bone, don't you think?
MAN: No, no, no, no, no. That's a monster's left fibula if I've ever seen one. Trust me.
WOMAN: Oh, oh, oh oh. New idea. What if it's a dragon's tailbone?
SIDDHARTH: So people used to think dinosaur fossils were from giants or monsters.
MOLLY: As time went on and people found more and more fossils, they started to think that dinosaurs were just giant lizards that weren't around anymore.
SIDDHARTH: Right. The word dinosaur literally means fearfully great lizard in Greek.
MOLLY: But our first clue that dinosaurs might actually be related to birds came in the mid 1800s.
SIDDHARTH: Back then, people were still using horses and buggies to get around.
[HOOVES CLOPPING]
MOLLY: Trains were becoming more popular too.
[TRAIN HORN BLARING]
Plus, some of the first zippers had just been invented.
[ZIPPER ZIPS]
SIDDHARTH: And in 1861, a German paleontologist discovered a fossil of a bird-like dinosaur. Paleontologists are people who study fossils.
MOLLY: The dinosaur fossil had a small body, about the size of a raven. It also had wings, but not just any wings. Wings with feathers. This was the first discovery of a dinosaur with feathers.
SIDDHARTH: They called this new creature Archaeopteryx.
MOLLY: Even after this discovery, only a few scientists thought that birds and dinosaurs could be related.
SIDDHARTH: Lots of paleontologists argued that Archaeopteryx was just a super old bird, not a dinosaur.
MOLLY: The majority of people still believed that dinosaurs could only be giant lizards and reptiles.
SIDDHARTH: Until over 100 years later, in the 1990s.
MOLLY: The year was 1996. The kids show Arthur had just started airing on TV. The Spice Girls were taking over the radio and my heart.
SIDDHARTH: And in China, scientists had made an exciting new discovery.
[PIANO PLAYING]
They identified a bunch of dinosaur fossils with feathers.
MOLLY: These feathered fossils were different from Archaeopteryx because these dinosaurs didn't have wings. They didn't fly. They were just feathery dinos.
SIDDHARTH: Up until that point, the only animals we knew of with feathers were birds. But these fossils definitely weren't birds.
MOLLY: So if long, long ago, there were ancient dinos with feathers, and then much later, we see similar feathers on birds, it makes sense to think that those two species are directly related.
SIDDHARTH: Since then, paleontologists have found thousands of dinosaur fossils with feathers.
MOLLY: Which changed our idea of what dinosaurs looked like. We used to think they were just big lizards, but now we understand that some dinos were more bird-like.
SIDDHARTH: And our idea of dinosaurs will probably keep changing.
[HEAVY FLAPPING]
MOLLY: That's right. Every time we find a new fossil or figure out something new about the past, we get a little more information about what dinosaurs were really like. It's like we're putting an ancient puzzle together piece by piece.
SIDDHARTH: And the picture gets clearer and clearer with every new bit of evidence.
MOLLY: OK. Siddharth, we've tackled the dinosaur and bird mystery, but are you ready for a mystery for the ears? Because it's time for the--
GIRL: Shh.
(WHISPERING) Mystery sound.
MOLLY: Siddharth, are you ready to hear today's mystery sound?
SIDDHARTH: Yeah.
MOLLY: OK, here it is.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
What do you think?
SIDDHARTH: OK, so it's definitely outdoors.
MOLLY: Mm-hmm.
SIDDHARTH: There's something mechanical with some sort of electrical motor, and it was outdoors. So maybe it was like a car door opening.
MOLLY: Yeah, it's tricky. Should we hear it again?
SIDDHARTH: Yeah.
MOLLY: OK.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
OK.
SIDDHARTH: It might actually be like the trunk of a car opening now that I think about it.
MOLLY: That's a really good guess.
SIDDHARTH: Like when somebody presses a button. Maybe I'm just too focused on this idea, but--
MOLLY: No.
SIDDHARTH: I think it might be--
MOLLY: That's a really good guess. I also have no idea what this is. I heard birds. So maybe it's the bird I hired to mow my lawn with their new electric lawn mower. I don't know. We'll hear it again. We'll get another chance to guess and hear the answer after the credits, where we will find that Siddharth was probably right and I was most likely wrong.
So Siddharth, if you could bring a living, breathing dinosaur to show-and-tell at school, what kind would you bring and why?
SIDDHARTH: Oh, I'd probably bring a type of dinosaur called a Dryosaurus. I wouldn't bring any carnivorous dinosaur because it would probably either bite me or eat me.
MOLLY: Yeah.
SIDDHARTH: And probably not any large dinosaur because that would be hard. Dryosaurus is like a 5-foot tall herbivorous dinosaur, which probably wasn't aggressive and was tame. So I'd just like to think of it as maybe it could be like a large dog.
MOLLY: Hey, I love that. A little dog dino buddy to bring to school that's as tall as me. I think that's really great. Well, we asked our listeners the same question, and here's what they had to say.
ELLIE: If I could bring a dinosaur to school, I would bring an Archaeopteryx because I could play hide-and-seek with it and make a fort under my desk.
MARGOT: Hi. My name is Margot, and I would bring a gentle Triceratops so that me and my friends could ride on it. While we were riding, we could put our jackets on the Triceratops' horns.
AINSLEY: Hi, I'm Ainsley. I live in Scarborough, Maine, and the dinosaur that I would bring to show-and-tell is a Scansoriopteryx, a small winged dinosaur, so it could glide around the classroom.
EMMETT: Hi. My name is Emmett, and I would bring a blue T.rex to ride around faster on the playground.
TOBY: My name is Toby, and I live in Virginia. And I want to bring a Troodon because he could help me with my math test.
GRACE: My name is Grace, and I would bring in a Brontosaurus. I would bring in a Brontosaurus so that, at recess, the kids could climb on its head. And it would take them around the playground, and they could also slide down its back and tail.
FIN: I would bring back all of them because I like all dinosaurs.
MOLLY: Thanks to Ellie, Margot, Ainsley, Emmett, Toby, Grace, and Fin for sending your classroom companion ideas. It's clear that our listeners love dinosaurs because we heard from so many of you, so we're going to play more of your dino pal ideas at the end of the show. We love hearing from our listeners. It makes us so happy. If you want to send us something, go to brainson.org/contact while you're there. You can send us mystery sounds, drawings, and questions.
SIDDHARTH: Like this one.
CARLY: Hi. My name is Carly, and I'm from Woodstock, Georgia. And my question is, would a poisonous snake die if it bit itself? Thank you.
MOLLY: You can find answers to questions like these on the Moment of Um podcast, a short dose of facts and fun every weekday. Find Moment of Um and more at brainson.org.
SIDDHARTH: And keep listening.
WOMAN: Brains On universe is a family of podcasts for kids and their adults. Since you're a fan of Brains On, you'll love the other shows in our universe. Come on. Let's explore!
[ROCKET BLASTING]
ALIEN: It's alien exercise hour. Hi ya! Hoo ha! While I stretch my snoodles and bounce on my trampoline, I'll listen to a new podcast. [LAUGHS]
[BUZZ]
I'm going to try Smash Boom Best, the best debate podcast ever!
WOMAN: Tell us why Alice in Wonderland has such grand command.
MAN: Drop the beat. Ladies and gentlemen, esteemed judge of Smash Boom Best, I'd like to start with a few rhymes.
(RAPPING) Yo, catch me in the rabbit hole
Dazzled by a magic show
By the--
[BEEP]
ALIEN: Zarp! Come back here, podcast.
[MACHINE SOUNDS]
Must listen to Smash Boom Best now!
WOMAN: Listen to Smash Boom Best wherever you get your podcasts.
(SINGING) Ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba, Brains On
SIDDHARTH: You're listening to Brains On. I'm Siddharth.
MOLLY: And I'm Molly.
SIDDHARTH: Before the break, we talked about how birds are like living dinosaurs.
MOLLY: Birds first evolved from a group of dinosaurs called Theropods millions of years ago. We know this because scientists have found lots of fossil evidence.
SIDDHARTH: The dinosaur-bird connection is just one example of unexpected distant relatives. The world is full of them.
MOLLY: Like how NSYNC's Lance Bass and Britney Spears are sixth cousins.
SIDDHARTH: You're full of late 1990s pop music references today, aren't you, Molly? But I was thinking about how different animals are related, like through evolution.
MOLLY: When we say different animals are related, it's not like they're siblings or cousins. It's more like they have a distant animal relative in common. Wait a second. Siddharth, when did you change into an orange sequined blazer?
SIDDHARTH: Oh, this?
MOLLY: Hey, is that my game show podium and old timey microphone?
SIDDHARTH: Yes and yes.
(ON MIC) Testing, testing. 1, 2, 3.
MOLLY: This can only mean one thing. It's game show, Siddharth.
SIDDHARTH: That's right.
MOLLY: Does that mean I get to be the contestant?
SIDDHARTH: Correct, contestant Molly. I think it's time we play a little game of--
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
WOMAN: Guess That Relative!
SIDDHARTH: For this game, I'll name an animal and then list two possible relatives. You have to guess which relative is more closely related to that animal. So for example, if I gave you the animal T.rex, would you say it's more closely related to chickens or chameleons?
MOLLY: Ooh. Chickens.
SIDDHARTH: You got it.
MOLLY: [SIGHS]
SIDDHARTH: OK, let's start. Your first animal is jellyfish. Do you think jellyfish are more closely related to a blobfish or a coral?
MOLLY: Ooh. OK. I'm going to guess blobfish because they're kind of blobby and jellyfish are kind of wiggly. Am I right?
SIDDHARTH: That is actually incorrect.
MOLLY: Oh, man.
SIDDHARTH: Jellyfish are, in fact, not fish. They're more closely related to coral than they are to any fish. They belong to the Cnidaria family. That includes coral and sea anemones.
MOLLY: Oh, my gosh. You know what? That makes a lot of sense because we did a coral episode not too long ago, and I learned about coral polyps. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. OK. Wow.
SIDDHARTH: I just listened to that one in the car.
MOLLY: Oh, you did?
SIDDHARTH: On my way here, yeah.
MOLLY: I really should have thought about that. Yeah, because baby jellyfish are also called polyps, you guys. OK, OK. I get it. I get it. I'm ready. I'm ready for the next one.
SIDDHARTH: OK. Let's talk horseshoe crabs. Do you think they're more closely related to spiders or lobsters?
MOLLY: Horseshoe crabs. Oh, man. I feel like these are extra tricky. Lobsters have shells. Horseshoe crabs have shells. Oh, man. OK, I got to say lobsters.
SIDDHARTH: The correct answer is, in fact, spiders.
MOLLY: Oh, my gosh.
SIDDHARTH: Despite their name, horseshoe crabs aren't really crabs. They're more like spiders or scorpions. They're, in fact, one of the oldest living animals. You ready for another one?
MOLLY: Yes, and I'm realizing it's much harder to be a contestant on a game show. OK, I'm ready. I'm ready.
SIDDHARTH: All right. This one is about your favorite animal, sloths.
MOLLY: [GASPS]
SIDDHARTH: Do you think sloths are more closely related to koalas or anteaters?
MOLLY: OK. I better get this right for the sloths. I talk about them a lot. OK. Come on. OK. I'm going to say anteaters.
SIDDHARTH: That is actually correct.
MOLLY: Yay! I love that you're surprised that I got it right.
[LAUGHTER]
SIDDHARTH: Even though koalas like to chill out and hang out in trees, they're not actually as closely related to sloths as anteaters.
MOLLY: [SIGHS] Thank goodness I got that right or else I would not be able to say sloths are my favorite animal anymore. What a relief.
SIDDHARTH: OK, your final animal is the great hippopotamus. Do you think hippos are more closely related to rhinos or to whales?
MOLLY: [SIGHS] Hippos. Rhinos or whales? OK. Hippos like to be in the water. So do whales. I've never seen a wet rhinoceros, so I'm going to go with whale.
SIDDHARTH: You're correct.
MOLLY: [GASPS] Oh, my gosh.
SIDDHARTH: Hippos are actually whales' closest living relative. They share a common ancestor that lived about 55 million years ago that probably lived on land. Nice work, Molly.
MOLLY: Started off weak but I gained steam towards the end. What do I win?
SIDDHARTH: Glory.
MOLLY: OK. Great job, game show Siddharth. That was excellent work.
SIDDHARTH: That's all for--
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
WOMAN: Guess That Relative!
GIRL: (SLOWED) Brains On, on, on.
MOLLY: So far, we've talked about how birds evolved from ancient dinosaurs.
SIDDHARTH: We know this based on fossils we've found of dinosaurs with feathers.
MOLLY: We also know that dinosaurs were wiped out about 66 million years ago when a giant asteroid hit Earth.
SIDDHARTH: This asteroid caused around 75% of Earth's animals to die out.
MOLLY: So if birds are living dinosaurs, why is it that birds survived the mass extinction but dinosaurs didn't?
SIDDHARTH: To learn more, we talked to paleontologist Jingmai O'Connor.
MOLLY: She's the associate curator of fossil reptiles at the Field Museum in Chicago, and she studies how birds evolved from dinos. Hi, Jingmai.
JINGMAI: Hi, Molly. Hi, Siddharth. Thank you so much for having me.
SIDDHARTH: We've got some questions for you, Jingmai. First up, how are birds and dinosaurs similar? What are their differences?
JINGMAI: OK. So this is kind of a tough question because when we think of dinosaurs, it is this incredibly diverse group. There are so many different types of dinosaurs, right? So for example, if you compare Stegosaurus to a bird, they might not seem that similar.
So what you have to do is go back to the ancestral dinosaur, the common ancestor of all dinosaurs, both alive today and extinct. So that animal was small, bipedal, warm-blooded, and covered in skin projections that we call protofeathers. So those are all things that are very similar to birds today, except feathers evolved into very complex structures in birds.
Now, what are the differences? Well, one of the biggest differences is that birds can fly. But actually, this does not separate birds from all non-bird dinosaurs. There were also other groups of dinosaurs that also evolved to be able to fly. So evolution is so complex, which makes it really difficult for us to provide simple answers to these questions.
SIDDHARTH: Did birds and dinosaurs live at the same time? And if so, what time?
JINGMAI: Absolutely. So the oldest dinosaurs appear in the Triassic, and they're about 235 million years old. The oldest birds that we know of are about 150, 155 million years. So from 155 million years ago to 66 million years ago, you have birds and non-bird dinosaurs coexisting. And then after the end-cretaceous mass extinction, the most famous mass extinction caused by this giant meteor impact, then you only have bird dinosaurs going forward.
SIDDHARTH: How did birds survive the meteor impact when all the dinosaurs went extinct?
JINGMAI: This is a very good question, and one that I'm actually hoping to be able to provide an answer to with my own research. The short answer is we don't really know. Now, one thing that's important to remember is that while, yes, birds survived this mass extinction, but not all birds survived. There were lots of lineages of Cretaceous birds that also go extinct alongside non-bird dinosaurs.
So what made the one lineage of birds that did survive different from other dinosaurs that allowed them to survive through this environmental disaster? There are several possibilities. So for example, modern birds grow really fast. So for example, have you ever seen a baby pigeon? That's because pigeons stay in the nest and grow to adult size in about three weeks, and then they fly off.
So you just never really see them as babies because they grow so quickly. So this means that if you can grow quickly, you spend a shorter period of time where you're vulnerable and you rely on your parents and you aren't as good as taking care of yourself. So if you can grow quickly, that's something that's advantageous. Also, birds have very high metabolic rates, so that may have allowed them to survive when it got cold.
Birds also have really complex and super efficient digestive systems that allow them to feed on things like detritus. So basically, that's like-- during this mass extinction, you have an impact winter. So the sun is blocked out, which means the plants die. That means the animals that eat the plants die, and the animals that eat the animals that eat the plants die, right?
But if you can eat things that-- for example, seeds from trees that were from years before. If you can eat that kind of detritus, then maybe that was an advantage that helped birds survive through this mass extinction. There are so many different reasons that we think maybe allowed this one lineage of birds to survive. It's probably a combination of all these factors. But again, like I said, sorry for that long answer. We don't really know.
SIDDHARTH: Wow, that's really cool. I actually didn't know that. What are we still learning about the connections between birds and dinosaurs?
JINGMAI: So we know that birds are living dinosaurs, but we don't know which group of non-bird dinosaurs birds are most closely related to. So there are a bunch of different hypotheses. A hypothesis is an interpretation of evidence that you seek to test by collecting more data.
I personally hypothesize that birds are a lineage, a branch of living Troodontid dinosaurs. How cool is that? But we're really not sure about this. We still need more fossils to help us better understand the relationship between birds and the dinosaurs most closely related to them.
The problem is, there's a lot of homoplasy. And homoplasy basically means that you have similar features evolving over and over again independently. So like I mentioned, we have more than one group of flying dinosaurs. There are all the dinosaurs that are closely related to birds. So even though they evolved flight separately, they're evolving similar features because they're trying to solve the similar problem of being able to fly.
SIDDHARTH: Wow, that's really interesting. Scientists actually recently discovered another ancient bird fossil in China. What do you think of this new discovery, and can you tell us more about why scientists are so excited about this new bird fossil?
JINGMAI: We totally are so excited about this new bird fossil. And it was discovered by a friend of mine, Doctor Wang Min, so I just can't say how proud I am of him. So the reason this is so exciting is because I know you guys talked about Archaeopteryx earlier, and you talked about how it was described in 1861.
So for 163 years, Archaeopteryx was the only bird we knew of from the Jurassic. It was the oldest fossil bird and the only bird from that period. And now, finally, 163 years later, we have another Jurassic bird, Baminornis. And actually, also that furcula that they described in the same paper, so two new Jurassic birds. Now, what's really, really exciting about this discovery is that if you look at the skeleton of these birds, it's very advanced.
You see a lot of features that you also see in living birds. So this means that we can push the origin of birds back deeper into the Jurassic. This means we probably should be finding bird fossils that are-- I don't know-- like 165 million years old. It's hard to say. But it definitely means there should be way more Jurassic bird fossils out there to find.
SIDDHARTH: Wow, that's a really big discovery.
MOLLY: I'm just curious, as someone who thinks about this a lot. Like, when you see birds flying around, hanging outside your house, what do you think about them?
JINGMAI: Dinosaur! I'm just kidding. Yeah. I mean, OK. I'm going to be completely honest that before I started studying birds, I paid very little attention to them. And now that I study them, I find them so fascinating, and I just can't believe that I paid them so little heed before.
And I think this is just an important message for everyone that, until we start noticing something and paying attention to something and learning about it, we really can't value it, right? And so, by studying birds and learning about just how fascinating they are, I've come to really appreciate them. And I also start to think-- look at bird like characteristics and then kind of imagine Theropod dinosaurs closely related to birds having similar characteristics.
Like, have you seen how fast birds move? You know, when they move their heads in this incredibly fast, jerky way. So you can start to imagine dinosaurs having some similar movements, styles, some similar behaviors. I mean, I think it helps us to bring dinosaurs to life. For everyone who loves dinosaurs, you got to love-- you got to love the living dinosaurs. You got to appreciate birds and see what they can teach us about the dinosaurs that are now extinct.
MOLLY: So awesome. Incredible.
SIDDHARTH: Thanks for answering our questions, Jingmai.
JINGMAI: It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited that you want to learn about dinosaurs.
MAN: Brains On!
MOLLY: Now, because there's no such thing as too many dinosaurs in a classroom-- maybe there is? Lots of them are pretty big. But anyway, here are more of your ideas about which dinos you'd like to show off at school.
[UPBEAT MUSIC]
SOPHIA: Hi. My name is Sophia, at I'm from Northglenn, Colorado. And the dinosaur that I would bring back for show-and-tell would be a Stegosaurus because they only eat plants, and they are really pretty.
ETHAN: My name is Ethan from Houston, Texas, and I'll bring the Mosasaurus to show-and-tell because it's the protector of the seas.
SHEPARD: Hey. My name is Shepard, and I want to bring a Raptor to show-and-tell because you can put a saddle on it, and you can hop on it really easily, and you can also go really fast. Fun fact. Did you know Raptors are only the size of a poodle?
IRIS: Hi, my name is Iris. I'm from Memphis, Tennessee. I would bring a Diplodocus to school because me and my friends could mess around saying its name. For example, I like to say Diplodocus, and we could slide down its neck, and it wouldn't eat us because it is a herbivore.
CAROLINE: I'm Caroline from Kaysville, Utah. I would bring a baby Apatosaurus because that has been one of my favorite dinosaurs since I was little.
IAN: I'm Ian from Minnesota, and I would bring a Brontosaurus to show-and-tell because I could ride on its neck like a slide. And if I were on its head, it could sway its head back and forth, so it would act kind of like a swing.
MOLLY: Thanks to Sophia, Ethan, Shepard, Iris, Caroline, and Ian for sending in those awesome ideas.
[PLAYFUL MUSIC]
The birds we know today evolved from a certain type of dinosaur called Theropods millions and millions of years ago.
SIDDHARTH: We know that birds are related to dinosaurs because of fossils.
MOLLY: Scientists think birds survived the mass extinction because they evolved to be smaller, fly, and had beaks.
SIDDHARTH: Our understanding of dinosaurs will probably change the more and more we study and learn about them.
MOLLY: That's it for this episode of Brains On.
SIDDHARTH: This episode was written by--
RUBY: Ruby Guthrie.
MOLLY: It was edited by--
SHAHLA: Shahla Farzan.
MOLLY: And--
SANDEN: Sanden Totten.
MOLLY: We had engineering help from Alex Simpson and Shannon Harrison, with sound design by--
RACHEL: Rachel Brees.
MOLLY: And fact checking by--
REBECCA: Rebecca Rand.
MOLLY: Original theme music by--
MARC: Marc Sanchez.
SIDDHARTH: We had production help from the rest of the Brains On Universe team.
MOLLY: Molly Bloom.
ROSE: Rose DuPont.
ANNA: Anna Goldfield.
NICO: Nico Gonzalez Wisler.
LAUREN: Lauren Humbert.
JOSHUA: Joshua Ray.
MARC: Marc Sanchez.
CHARLOTTE: Charlotte Trever.
ANNA: Anna Weggel.
SIDDHARTH: And--
ARON: Aron Woldeslassie.
MOLLY: Beth Pearlman is our executive producer, and the executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavati and Joanne Griffith. Special Thanks to Vasudha Bharadwaj.
SIDDHARTH: Brains On is a non-profit public radio program.
MOLLY: There are lots of ways to support the show. Subscribe to Brains On Universe on YouTube, where you can watch animated versions of some of your favorite episodes, or head to brainson.org.
SIDDHARTH: While you're there, you can send us your mystery sounds, drawings, and questions.
MOLLY: OK. Siddharth, are you ready to hear the mystery sound again?
SIDDHARTH: Yep. Come on.
MOLLY: Here it is.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
Hmm. Any new thoughts? Before, you thought a trunk or a door on a car, which seems like a really good guess to me. Do you have any other thoughts? You want to stick with it? What do you think?
SIDDHARTH: I heard like a gas motor turning on. I didn't know if that-- I don't know if I heard that, but it sounded like almost like a dirt bike or a motorcycle in the background.
MOLLY: Ooh.
SIDDHARTH: I also heard something being moved around and colliding with metal or whatever, but I still think I'm going to stay with my guess. Either like a fancy door of a car being opened or like a trunk being opened.
MOLLY: Mm-hmm. I like your guess. I'm going to say a bird on a dirt bike because I heard a bird.
SIDDHARTH: Amazing guess.
MOLLY: And you thought dirt-- yeah, OK. Let's see if either of us are right.
MILO: My name is Milo, and that was the sound of me closing my van door.
MOLLY: Oh. Oh, my gosh, Siddharth. You got that 100% correct.
SIDDHARTH: Yes! I redeemed myself from last time. Last time, I had like the most horrible guess.
MOLLY: [LAUGHS] Oh, my gosh. All of that training you've been doing has really paid off. Incredible work.
SIDDHARTH: Yes!
MOLLY: Wow. You're a game show host and a successful mystery sound guesser.
[SIGHS] This is an exciting day.
SIDDHARTH: Thank you.
[MYSTERY SOUND]
MOLLY: Now it's time for the Brains Honor Roll. These are the incredible kids who keep the show going with their questions, ideas, mystery sounds, drawings, and high fives.
[LISTING HONOR ROLL]
[UPBEAT MUSIC] Brains Honor Roll
We'll be back next week with an episode all about band-aids, bruises, and scars.
SIDDHARTH: Thanks for listening!
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